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ECM Effectiveness against AI SAM


Shrike88

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Greetings guys,

 

I posted in the main 2.5 open beta thread however since this is a much more active thread, I am hoping for some clarification, and since it involves the Harrier.. well here I am.

 

Really trying to shed some light on a subject I have combed over for hours on subreddits and ED forums and still have not really found any answers.

 

Are ECM pods even working in DCS against surface to air threats ? I have played, created missions watching the engagement ranges and ranges that a lock and am fired on from different SAMs as well as using the 410 pod on the SU-25T, as well as the pod on the AV-8B. Seems there is no difference between having the pod and it activated vs. having no pod. Am I just carting around dead weight by carrying these when running SEAD ?

 

Please anyone help me shed some light on this. Is it even coded on the game ? These pods have been around the Sim forever. Sad to see they do not work for me at all.

 

(I know they work against player controlled aircraft, that's not my question)

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A very complicated question. I dont think ECM works against Radar guided SAMs. When u turn on the ECM it like flashing a torch in darkness. Everyone can see where the torch is coming from. Its called Home on Jammer(HOJ). Secondly The Radar used on Sam systems are way too powerful as compared to what they have in Aircrafts.

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From what i remember the ECM is manifested as a simple range modifier for the sams where;

 

No ECM = Launch range x 1

Ecm On = Launch range x0.85

 

Multiplier varies with ecm type, i think.


Edited by Dugong
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i tested it with the Av8s pod and found no difference at al vs an as8 or sa11. but thejn again i was looking more at locking speed than range

'controlling' the Ka50 feels like a discussion with the Autopilot and trim system about the flight direction.

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A very complicated question. I dont think ECM works against Radar guided SAMs. When u turn on the ECM it like flashing a torch in darkness. Everyone can see where the torch is coming from. Its called Home on Jammer(HOJ). Secondly The Radar used on Sam systems are way too powerful as compared to what they have in Aircrafts.

 

 

 

Lots of words and almost all horrible wrong.

 

 

 

 

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Lots of words and almost all horrible wrong.

 

Then you can help him by correcting the mistakes ;)

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ECM Effectiveness against AI SAM

 

Then you can help him by correcting the mistakes ;)

 

 

 

Sure , but all have to do is read (not wikipedia) , in first gulf war jammers work really fine against heavy sam network. So in Kosovo etc..

 

But yes, in dcs modeling is (least now) simpple. Just affects range :/

 

 

Here is one good book to read https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Electronic-Warfare-Artech-Library/dp/1580530524

 

And FREE tech info: https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/237172223/23724318-Electronic-Warfare-Fundamentals#

 

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Edited by Haukka81

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Sure , but all have to do is read (not wikipedia) , in first gulf war jammers work really fine against heavy sam network. So in Kosovo etc..

 

But yes, in dcs modeling is (least now) simpple. Just affects range :/

 

 

Here is one good book to read https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Electronic-Warfare-Artech-Library/dp/1580530524

 

And FREE tech info: https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/237172223/23724318-Electronic-Warfare-Fundamentals#

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That wasnt correction at all. Lets discuss one by one.

 

Ok first thing. If a plane can HOJ, why cant a SAM Radar do so?

 

Stealth Air crafts keep their Radar and counter measures off in order not to be detected. Moment you turn on ECM you give away your location. Have you ever heard of a B 2 bomber flying with ECM on? or a F22 raptor?

 

A F-16 was short down by Russain SAM. The SAM operator just had approx idea of the Aircraft location. He fired two sams and turned on his Radar at last moments. When the pilot got missile warning it was already too late.

 

ECM of a fighter jet has 120 degrees coverage. What about the remaining 240 degrees? If the missile is coming from the remaining 240 Degrees ?

 

Are SAM Radars not more powerful than what we have in Aircrafts? If an aircraft can burn through an ECM at the specific distance, why cant sam Radar have a burn in distance?

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Stealth Air crafts keep their Radar and counter measures off in order not to be detected. Moment you turn on ECM you give away your location. Have you ever heard of a B 2 bomber flying with ECM on? or a F22 raptor?

 

If my limited knowledge serves me right the above is for noise jamming, the only ECM we have in DCS AFAIK. Guys with superior knowledge correct me if I'm wrong but there is a lot of other ways to use ECM that would not immediately reveal the jamming aircraft position.

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From what i remember the ECM is manifested as a simple range modifier for the sams where;

 

No ECM = Launch range x 1

Ecm On = Launch range x0.85

 

Multiplier varies with ecm type, i think.

 

Well again maybe my original question was lost and starting to see topic veer in the wrong direction.

 

Thanks @Dugong! that what I was looking for. To address other posts I know and am well familiar about ECM and the theory and use behind it. Just wanted to know how its coded if anyone knows or if its even working or implemented in DCS against ai SAM threats. Especially LOMAC is approaching a Decade old and half for FC3.

 

I will check and maybe record some data if there is a 15% reduction on launch range and maybe post my findings, and then we can use that in the community to our advantage as how it IS actually modeled in the sim.

 

Testing more with the AV-8B constant heading speed alt. finding 0 variance on several platforms

-ai sam rwr detection

-ai sam lock on distance.

-ai sam aquire.

-ai sam WEZ and launch.

 

thanks guys

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Ok first thing. If a plane can HOJ, why cant a SAM Radar do so?

 

What we have in DCS is noise jamming, likely some form of barrage jamming as well. It emits random noise on all frequencies it can at max power. This denies any range or doppler information so the radar has to fall back to some degraded angle-only tracking of the jammer (HOJ). It's true that every radar could theoretically do this but since you don't know range it's very hard to judge when to fire and the Pk for these shots isn't great either.

 

Realistically noise jamming is never done by fighter jets. What they do is deceptive ECM where you try and deceive the radar tracking you and make them tracking a false target or break lock alltogether. Good deceptive jamming won't even be detected by the radar unless you have a well trained human looking over it and even then there are times when you really can't do much against it. This just as basic knowledge to be aware of.

 

Stealth Air crafts keep their Radar and counter measures off in order not to be detected. Moment you turn on ECM you give away your location. Have you ever heard of a B 2 bomber flying with ECM on? or a F22 raptor?

 

No, they mostly don't. Their radars are built with LPI in mind and jammers are actually more effective when you use them on stealth planes as the jammer has to use less power than one that has to cover a huge skin return from a non-stealthy aircraft.

 

A F-16 was short down by Russain SAM. The SAM operator just had approx idea of the Aircraft location. He fired two sams and turned on his Radar at last moments. When the pilot got missile warning it was already too late.

 

That's a story told by media, a shot like that is impossible, SARH missiles such as the SA-6 used in this instance have to be tuned to the FCR, i.e. it has to be emitting. If you don't do that the missile will track very badly or likely not at all.

 

ECM of a fighter jet has 120 degrees coverage. What about the remaining 240 degrees? If the missile is coming from the remaining 240 Degrees ?

 

What fighter? That varies wildly between aircraft, F-15/Su-27 cover 120° fore and aft, jammers that use AESA can have 360° coverage.

 

Are SAM Radars not more powerful than what we have in Aircrafts? If an aircraft can burn through an ECM at the specific distance, why cant sam Radar have a burn in distance?

 

They are, of course, but also remember that the jammer always has the advantage as its signals only have to go one way, the radar faces two-way propagation loss. Burn-through distance will be higher obviously though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

That's a story told by media, a shot like that is impossible, SARH missiles such as the SA-6 used in this instance have to be tuned to the FCR, i.e. it has to be emitting. If you don't do that the missile will track very badly or likely not at all.

 

Not for media but for actual SAM operators then....

 

As You can operate many Soviet SAM systems without search or track radar up to the final seconds. Question is just how do you get the target approach warning (usually visually by other means) and then estimate the range.

 

It really is "Go! And search for the target while listening my steering commands until you do!"

 

You can surprise targets by doing that but it is very tricky as you can very well fly past the intercept point as you are on time operation of estimated range.

 

Newer than first gen SARH missile guidance doesn't require to get a lock before launch, it only requires to deliver to command system what code does the missile listen.

 

First the missiles fly with inertial guidance and only in terminal phase they swap to semi-active guidance listening emissions off the target. That is why the jamming systems needs to listen not just search or tracking radars but as well radio frequencies for guidance commands as you might very well be fired upon without single radar blip in RWR before it screams and missile is just couple seconds away.

 

That is as well reason why low visibility weather (cumulus clouds, low light, rain, mist, low altitude etc) are critical for SAM systems as you can't use a advanced features to surprise target.

 

The whole electronic warfare is very limited and simplified in DCS, rendering CAS operations and fighters operations super easy and simple compared what it should be.

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As You can operate many Soviet SAM systems without search or track radar up to the final seconds. Question is just how do you get the target approach warning (usually visually by other means) and then estimate the range.

 

It really is "Go! And search for the target while listening my steering commands until you do!"

 

Nonsense for SARH, this can work with command guidance SAMs like SA-2/3 where you can guide them via TV track, but not for the SA-6.

 

Newer than first gen SARH missile guidance doesn't require to get a lock before launch, it only requires to deliver to command system what code does the missile listen.

 

First the missiles fly with inertial guidance and only in terminal phase they swap to semi-active guidance listening emissions off the target. That is why the jamming systems needs to listen not just search or tracking radars but as well radio frequencies for guidance commands as you might very well be fired upon without single radar blip in RWR before it screams and missile is just couple seconds away.

 

Wrong, every SARH missile has to be tuned to the FCR before launch, and usually, once they're tuned and spun up, you have to launch them pretty soon too. It's true that some SARH missiles have a datalink proiding mid-course updates when the seeker is out of range but that doesn't mean you can launch them in some TWS-type mode like you do with active missiles.

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Lots of words and almost all horrible wrong.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

What is exactly wrong? ECM is like a torch in the dark this is true. And like a torch in the dark.you see the light but nothing eles, só, you see someone is "over there" but you can't lock him on because you can't get the exact position. So that statement is 100%.

 

We can go further to how ECM is working in real, vs DCS but... Nothing wrong with that statement.

 

That is why you should only switch them on in the correct moment. By the way, AV8 ECM should only work when you receive a signal from enemy radar. If not, it works only in receive only mode.

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What is exactly wrong? ECM is like a torch in the dark this is true. And like a torch in the dark.you see the light but nothing eles, só, you see someone is "over there" but you can't lock him on because you can't get the exact position. So that statement is 100%.

 

We can go further to how ECM is working in real, vs DCS but... Nothing wrong with that statement.

 

That is why you should only switch them on in the correct moment. By the way, AV8 ECM should only work when you receive a signal from enemy radar. If not, it works only in receive only mode.

 

Your RCS alone is like a torch in the dark unless you're stealth (and even then, you're at least a match that every radar will eventually spot), but modern self-protection jammers usually only activate when receiving signals from radars pinging them. DRFM does a lot more than just conceal the range to a target like in DCS, it will throw out false targets and will also do all sorts of funkiness to make radars drop the lock as soon as it is attempted, stuff not modeled in DCS because the capabilities of each ECM system and how well various radars can handle them is very classified.

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We already had this discussion

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=203973

 

Same OP, same date.

 

The answer is YES, they do have an effect on AI SAMs

 

 

Thanks for your contribution to the thread Shadowstep, However you obviously did not read my original post at the beginning of the month. I stated that I posted on here since I was not getting any responses to a previous post on the main Thread, and this was a much more active group.

 

furthermore a simple YES they do work was not the answer I was seeking as all of my tests proved otherwise. I have found the lua coding for them on the FC aircraft since my original post. This indicated that there is a threat detection reduction by fractions numerical ranges, however in my in-game tests I was not able to replicate.

 

Besides the simple YES can you shed some light on this ? engagements ranges and missile accuracy in game have not been "noticeably" affected for me albeit the pod being activated on the harrier.

 

I will post with the community once I have transcribed my information

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I did go in detail in couple of posts, seems like you haven't read that thread as it did get a lot of answers.

 

Which makes this not a "simple" "YES", but a "YES", which mean that I don't want to write all that again .

 

lol the harrier, by razbam. Is it even implemented. I don't have the module, the fact that you can equip it, doesn't mean it is functional.

 

Try it on the A-10. And it does work on FC3 aircraft as well (vs AI SAM). Or if it doesn't, it is bugged, as it did have effect.

 

Are you going to make me prove my point ? I am a bit too lazy to setup mission and do screen shots and tests right now, if I have to be honest.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Nonsense for SARH, this can work with command guidance SAMs like SA-2/3 where you can guide them via TV track, but not for the SA-6.

 

Nonsense. SA-6 has a TV track capability. Capability to over 20km range tracking, silent shooting without radar lock (CW illumination).

 

Wrong, every SARH missile has to be tuned to the FCR before launch, and usually, once they're tuned and spun up, you have to launch them pretty soon too. It's true that some SARH missiles have a datalink proiding mid-course updates when the seeker is out of range but that doesn't mean you can launch them in some TWS-type mode like you do with active missiles.

 

Wrong. Very many SARH got mid-course datalink capability, early ones were without. And many modern ones you can launch in TWS manner, even guide to multiple targets simultaneously, with modern radars updated from 2 to 4 or even 6 targets depending radar capabilities instead just 2-4 missiles to single target.

 

Many SAM systems as well allows to turn on the missile guidance illumination without launching a missile, to fool target to think missile was launched at them. As well launch the missiles without radar transmission turned on at all until final moment for illumination or even keep turned off and let the missile fly toward noise noise jammer. They are all tactics that can be used depending situation.

 

That is one reason why many SAM systems in DCS should be able to engage targets at max range as long we have just a noise jammers implemented, and such targets would never even know they are shot at. And one reason why we might find that jammers ain't working in DCS as it very well can be true. But DCS doesn't offer the realistic capabilities so CAS pilots and fighter pilots has easy times.

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Nonsense. SA-6 has a TV track capability. Capability to over 20km range tracking, silent shooting without radar lock (CW illumination).

 

Okay, I'll bite. In your world how would that "silent shooting" work if you want to guide the missile somehow? You'd still have to send stuff through the uplink right? If it even has an uplink, I'm not sure. Maybe you can put a source that the SA-6 has a missile uplink and is not purely SARH.

 

Wrong. Very many SARH got mid-course datalink capability, early ones were without. And many modern ones you can launch in TWS manner, even guide to multiple targets simultaneously, with modern radars updated from 2 to 4 or even 6 targets depending radar capabilities instead just 2-4 missiles to single target.

 

Yea, you can do that with ESA radars where you can have more than one target in STT, you might not even have to be in STT the whole time either but you still have to tune the missiles. But the SA-6 is not an ESA. Also most of the SAMs you're thinking off are TVM not SARH.

 

Many SAM systems as well allows to turn on the missile guidance illumination without launching a missile, to fool target to think missile was launched at them. As well launch the missiles without radar transmission turned on at all until final moment for illumination or even keep turned off and let the missile fly toward noise noise jammer. They are all tactics that can be used depending situation.

 

Yeah, naturally but what does that have to do with anything. And no you can't launch with radar off, you can try and it won't work.

 

That is one reason why many SAM systems in DCS should be able to engage targets at max range as long we have just a noise jammers implemented, and such targets would never even know they are shot at.

 

And how would they know that they're at max range then?

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As far as I understand, One Aircraft cannot do much against sams when it comes to jamming. Jamming is a very complicated operation in which various aircrafts carrying ECMs go into hostile area from various directions in order to effectively confuse the Radar. Those Aircrafts are dedicated for this operation and are specially equipped with high powered equipement.

 

I am not sure how effective a normal fighter can be agianst Sams. I mean many modern fighter jets have been shot down by Sams. Why dint they deloy ECMs if they were so effective?

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Okay, I'll bite. In your world how would that "silent shooting" work if you want to guide the missile somehow? You'd still have to send stuff through the uplink right? If it even has an uplink, I'm not sure. Maybe you can put a source that the SA-6 has a missile uplink and is not purely SARH.

Why should I answer when you are being a jerk. You can go trolling somewhere else if you ant to "bite" and it is not "in mine world" but it is reality. It is teach in the air defense arms and older systems are well documented as they are unclassified.

 

You can continue to believe that you need to illuminate the target with radar from start to end and if the "lock" is lost then is missile too. or that you can't launch missiles and guide them with radar transmitter off.

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