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DCS on STADIA


Xilon_x

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STADIA offers:

1) cloud computing,

2) cross-platform.

 

I doubt this would happen any time soon, given that DCS requires massive amount of processing power to achieve a decent level of performance in realtime.

 

It might become feasible if:

either 1) super fast (over 10Gbps) and low latency (<50ms) fibre broadband becomes available

or 2) edge computing via 5G/6G becomes available

 

And cross-platform is really a low priority for simulation, IMO.

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I guess Stadia is aimed at console kiddies (pun intended) and their little games - not for hardcore simulations like DCS.

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no the referent indicates all types of games even the simulators.

 

They would take anyone's money , certainly . But that is very different from actually delivering a quality DCS experience .

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anyway my opinion is that maybe we would need a multiplatform CLOUD even for simulation games that can use google map crome etc.ec. HARD CORE

 

which then I believe that the European connection is inferior to that of the U.S.A. we all have a router that travels at 20 mb with FIBER maybe things would improve.


Edited by Xilon_x
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Go ahead and have it as long as it's optional, but for me even if it is on some super fiber with below 5ms lag, and that's still big for competitive gaming, but mainly IMO google doesn't need to have it's nose up everywhere.

 

Are you going to rely on a cloud service to unlock your car door?

I drove into a river with my doors locked - "Oops the car management console service is experiencing connectivity issues, take care guys!" RIP

 

Anyway, Stadia isn't a new idea, remember OnLive.


Edited by Worrazen

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Yeah well, I don't think Stadia will be feasible for serious gamers. For console games, perhaps (if you can somehow reduce latency [which would still exist, despite going 100 gazillion bps bandwidth]). Just think that you need to process the input at the client, package it, send it over the network where the packet would be queued up (or if you use QoS, get preferential treatment), sent to the next router and so on ... get processed on the server, come back and then get rendered on the client. Even with huge processing power, there will be latency and it will get worse as the number of users on the network / server / cloud grow. Btw ... Cloud is nothing but a computer put far away somewhere, with your requests handled by one which is closer. It's just distributed ... not magic. And the farther away you are from the server, the worse it's gonna be. And as Worrazen just mentioned, cloud is stupid for things which are sitting next to you. Like the IoT bulbs and stuff! Sure, remote is ok but why deliberately leave a hole open in your network?

 

 

 

TLDR: Simple console games, perhaps ... but hard-core sims, most likely not.

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DCS on STADIA

 

Yeah well, I don't think Stadia will be feasible for serious gamers. For console games, perhaps (if you can somehow reduce latency [which would still exist, despite going 100 gazillion bps bandwidth]). Just think that you need to process the input at the client, package it, send it over the network where the packet would be queued up (or if you use QoS, get preferential treatment), sent to the next router and so on ... get processed on the server, come back and then get rendered on the client. Even with huge processing power, there will be latency and it will get worse as the number of users on the network / server / cloud grow. Btw ... Cloud is nothing but a computer put far away somewhere, with your requests handled by one which is closer. It's just distributed ... not magic. And the farther away you are from the server, the worse it's gonna be. And as Worrazen just mentioned, cloud is stupid for things which are sitting next to you. Like the IoT bulbs and stuff! Sure, remote is ok but why deliberately leave a hole open in your network?

 

 

 

TLDR: Simple console games, perhaps ... but hard-core sims, most likely not.

 

 

 

Cloud computing can offer massive processing power(and rendering), far more than a high-end home PC. Totally different magnitude, not just a server somewhere remote. So the whole idea is still legit and quite attractive. Just certain conditions need to be met before we, the simmers, can take advantage of that.

 

Those relevant solution/technologies are at horizon. Even the latency problem is solvable.

Have some faith... Though the implementation of those tech however could take quite a while... lol

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Edited by ravenzino

i9-9900K, G.Skill 3200 32GB RAM, AORUS Z390 Pro Wifi, Gigabyte Windforce RTX 2080 Ti, Samsung 960 Pro NVMe 512G + 860 Pro 1T, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder, Samsung O+

F/A-18C, F-16C, A-10C, UH-1, AV-8B, F-14, JF-17, FC3, SA342 Gazelle, L-39, KA-50, CEII, Supercarrier Preordered. (Almost abandoned: CA - VR support please?)

PG, NTTR

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I agree that it can provide massive processing power. And that's why it's used, but that processing power comes at a cost as well. Whether it's a subscription based service or a usage based service, do you really think it'd be feasible for gamers? I can think of a "cheap" option where you subscribe and get access to a large library of games (think Netflix) but will you have access to really old or obscure titles? And if yes, will they be available for eternity, or only until the provider retains rights? ... and what about EPIC exclusives :P

 

 

 

As for latency, how can you get over transmission speeds and processing time? Heck, serious gamers even count latency from the input lag of their input devices and the lag to their display devices. Those will still exist, and then you add network latency on top of it. As for implementation, we still haven't seen complete implementation of IPv6 across the world, and the demo runs you may have seen for remotely operated cars (like in that hill climb event) or for the tech demos of these new services, all have had dedicated links and servers nearby.

Now scale that to a city / state, and you can perhaps see the latency going up. If you have ~50 msec latency to your game's MP server, you need to add a bit more because now everything you see / do has THAT latency + the latency to Stadia's servers. And let's not forget that distributed systems would also have proxies in front which would add processing overheads (to route that request to the corresponding compute cluster / device).

 

 

And assuming that all of this works perfectly, it would certainly mean that even [the game featuring dragons]* becomes an online game. :P

 

 

*Sorry if I went off-topic for a couple of those, or referenced other games.

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I hope not.

 

On a sim like DCS, or any other sim racing, we need very precise inputs and minimum input lag that we can. Add the latency of an internet connection and it results in a bad idea.

 

But the worst thing of Stadia is that is an absolutely closed platform: you buy the game, and play it, that's everything.

 

This is totally contrary on what sim and PC communities have ever been: Goodbye mods, goodbye editing luas, goodbye customized drivers, custom setups...

 

Could be great to play FIFA or call of duty or whatever on a mobile phone, but really can't see the point in DCS.

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I agree that it can provide massive processing power. And that's why it's used, but that processing power comes at a cost as well. Whether it's a subscription based service or a usage based service, do you really think it'd be feasible for gamers? I can think of a "cheap" option where you subscribe and get access to a large library of games (think Netflix) but will you have access to really old or obscure titles? And if yes, will they be available for eternity, or only until the provider retains rights? ... and what about EPIC exclusives :P

 

 

 

As for latency, how can you get over transmission speeds and processing time? Heck, serious gamers even count latency from the input lag of their input devices and the lag to their display devices. Those will still exist, and then you add network latency on top of it. As for implementation, we still haven't seen complete implementation of IPv6 across the world, and the demo runs you may have seen for remotely operated cars (like in that hill climb event) or for the tech demos of these new services, all have had dedicated links and servers nearby.

Now scale that to a city / state, and you can perhaps see the latency going up. If you have ~50 msec latency to your game's MP server, you need to add a bit more because now everything you see / do has THAT latency + the latency to Stadia's servers. And let's not forget that distributed systems would also have proxies in front which would add processing overheads (to route that request to the corresponding compute cluster / device).

 

 

And assuming that all of this works perfectly, it would certainly mean that even [the game featuring dragons]* becomes an online game. :P

 

 

*Sorry if I went off-topic for a couple of those, or referenced other games.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. If you look at my first post in this thread, you'll see my standing point. With the currently commercially available tech and average infrastructure in most places of the world, you are not wrong.

 

The point I'm trying to make here, is that while STADIA might not be suitable for DCS anytime soon, let's just don't rush to the conclusion of denying the merit and feasibility of using cloud computing for simulation in a longer term (say 5-10 years) and throw OP's idea into trash bin straight away, as 1) its power is unmatchable; 2) all the blocking problems are solvable via technologies either under development or already in early adoption.

 

Here're a few of them:

1) Latency

The current typical latency of accessing a DCS server, or basically any game server is somewhere between 30ms to 500ms or higher, give or take. To compare, local display lag is some 30+ms, input lag is some 4-8ms, current CPU/GPU processing lag is variable at about 17ms (60FPS) or above. Now, 5G latency is expected to be nearly 1ms. Realistically, probably a couple of ms. To assist understanding, that low latency is partially achieved via 5G network itself, and partially via edge computing, which is literally putting some computing power at your nearest mobile station/local exchange, which is typically a couple of km from you at most, if not some hundreds of meters. The next generation fibre transmission tech can also achieve similar performance. In fact, that is part of 5G as well (backhaul). I didn't say this will happen over night, but global telco operators are indeed on the way.

 

2) Throughput

To stream 4K video, you'll need 40Mbps network bandwidth. This might be a problem in some places of today's world, but shouldn't be as problematic in the next 5-10 years. Especially when 5G becomes largely available, some rich hardcore gamers don't even need a fibre, if a fibre is still not available by then...

 

3) Reliability

While network itself is drastically improving its availability (which is witnessed over the past decade), we always have the option of authorizing mission critical decision to be handled locally, which doesn't necessarily negate the merit of getting extra assistant from the cloud. Today, most, if not all the demos we saw are conceptual with the focus on showing its feasibility, while some people might easily become picky and rush to a negative conclusion by looking at its reliability side, which those demo aren't really designed for. Again, let's just be rational and not go from one extreme to another.

 

4) Remote Rendering

Nvidia demoed remote rendering 5 years ago at GDC 2014 (https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/gameworks/events/gdc14/GDC_14_Cloud_Gaming_With_GRID_Technologies.pdf)

A possible architectural change would be shifting local GPU into cloud. Now we would be talking about using an array of GPUs. DCS needs to support multiple GPUs of course... It would be, right? (Looking at ED)

 

5) Cost model

IMO, there could be two options.

a. DCS becomes cloud native, and sell as SaaS. Yea, in this case, it would likely be a subscription. But tbh, it wouldn't deter too many DCSers, as long as DCS local version still available, which has to be as it would be silly to assume everyone would have a good network connection.

b. You no longer need to own a home PC, instead, you own a virtual "cloud PC". Your some $2000 per 3 years PC upgrade cost can well afford that IaaS. Think about this: in the last 24 hours, how much of your CPU and GPU capacity is actually occupied and at what percentage? Assume averagely less than 20% overall. So if same HW is shared by 5 people, and charge everyone for 50% of its HW cost, it would be $1000 per person over 3 years. The total revenue would be $5000. Well, you can debate from different angles and come up with your own calculation model, but you see the economics in it right?

 

Please ED don't delete this discussion. It's tech nerds' joy, but could still benefit DCS one day. Let's have some dream~


Edited by ravenzino

i9-9900K, G.Skill 3200 32GB RAM, AORUS Z390 Pro Wifi, Gigabyte Windforce RTX 2080 Ti, Samsung 960 Pro NVMe 512G + 860 Pro 1T, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder, Samsung O+

F/A-18C, F-16C, A-10C, UH-1, AV-8B, F-14, JF-17, FC3, SA342 Gazelle, L-39, KA-50, CEII, Supercarrier Preordered. (Almost abandoned: CA - VR support please?)

PG, NTTR

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I'm not disagreeing with you. If you look at my first post in this thread, you'll see my standing point. With the currently commercially available tech and average infrastructure in most places of the world, you are not wrong.

Right. I noticed your first post ... but we need a few points and differing opinions to have a discussion, right? ;)

 

 

I am not throwing the idea in the bin either because considering businesses, it may happen eventually; Microsoft wanted Windows to be provided on a SaaS model.

But I am not a big fan of SaaS and prefer on-premises installations. Consider this, for instance ... ED came up with a new licensing system, but had to provide a few days' "backup" in case someone was playing without an Internet connection. No matter how advanced we get, the whole world does not move at the same pace and you will have islands / pockets where you have high bandwidth, low latency connections, and the regular ones. So, this solution may not be feasible for all and if they deploy it in high-tech societies, then the monetary benefits may not really help as such a society will probably have the purchasing power anyway.

 

 

To further discuss ...

1. Latency. Broadly agree on your points but I doubt Stadia will use edge computing. It will just increase the costs unless you see large-scale acceptance.

 

 

2. Higher bandwidth will become available, but we will need newer network protocols as well, for better throughput. Considering you are techie yourself, you'd know that low latency data generally uses UDP, but TCP sessions are known to result in slight packet loss on the line as they throttle. The simple solution is QoS but how many ISPs or home routers implement it properly? Then there's the point I was trying to make by mentioning IPv6; adoption will take a long time unless the businesses see this as an absolute money-making idea.

 

 

3. Reliability will increase; agree. But as we get more people, we get more traffic and competing flows. Probably your neighbour feels that his VoIP call should be higher priority than your games. Or 20 of your neighbours suddenly figure they should all stream super high-def content together. It works even right now as well but as bandwidth increases, so much the quality of the content and then the bandwidth requirements.

 

 

 

4. Remote rendering is good, but that removes mods we use for aesthetics ... unless you do some post-processing locally as well. I figure it could be a hybrid model with rather than the full rendered frames being sent, perhaps computed data could be sent. I remember that in the last decade, ATI had come up with an idea that if you had 100 boxes in a frame, just calculate it once and then copy it all over. Similarly, process the raytracing etc. and let the local device render it? There are render farms and computer clusters already, right? It's all essentially data in the end.

 

 

 

5. I'd rather not comment on the cost part. :)

 

 

 

A few merits ...

1. No more desync issues if everyone is coming from the same source

2. Perhaps some tasks could be offloaded to the cloud to have a hybrid approach, rather than full Stadia. I can think of CPU-intensive tasks for scripts, AI control etc. Maybe, some heavier GPU tasks could also be done remotely and then sent back. I recall a few research papers on Predictive models for CPUs, through ML. Maybe that could help prepare stuff before it is needed by the client, and that could be a good way to avoid latency.

3. It could be cheaper than maintaining a gaming PC and a games library (although Steam Sales help), and could see success similar to Netflix, Spotify and others. But as with the different stores / licenses thing ... how long will it last?

 

 

 

And additional points

1. ED would likely need to run the dedicated server if Merit (1) is to be achieved, in hand with Google. Although, I am not sure if we want to give a single entity as much power ... look at how a few games got blocked in Iran due to political reasons.

2. What about mods etc. we so fondly do for single player games? In case of DCS, many people use texture mods, or reshade for aesthetic reasons. That goes out of the picture (1987kess mentioned this)

3. I am not a big fan of subscribing, instead of buying stuff. With subscriptions (and I am talking of more games than just DCS), you are the mercy of your subscription service provider. Often times, I watched a movie or series on Amazon Prime / Netflix and then later found it removed. There was a famous case with Apple last year where a person purchased a song but then lost access to it because Apple figured they will not carry it further. We are gamers and some of us even play games from the last decade. Will these services maintain an exhaustive list of all games? Even GOG or Steam don't do that

4. Do we really need that much reliance on clouds in our lives? What if you have a freak el-nino and lose all your data as the clouds fly away :P

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This won't work for DCS, for one simple reason.

 

Google is an advertising company and exists solely to sell ads.

 

In DCS, unless you're in a chopper (or playing Combined Arms) we're just gonna be too damn high up to see the billboards.

 

:music_whistling::pilotfly:

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I believe that wolve is right perhaps for the world of the Simmers and therefore for all the simulators like dcs, falcon 4 bsm, the -2 sturmovik, jane's simulation, microsoft flight simulation, x-plane, ecc.ec. it'll take another kind of cloud platform technology.

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This won't work for DCS, for one simple reason.

 

Google is an advertising company and exists solely to sell ads.

 

In DCS, unless you're in a chopper (or playing Combined Arms) we're just gonna be too damn high up to see the billboards.

 

:music_whistling::pilotfly:

Heh, reminds me of when SWAT IV tried showing ads in the game. The community was in an uproar on being served ads despite having purchased the game.

But who knows what these tech giants throw our way in the future. They would want and advertise cloud because they can easily make you reliant on them, in such a case. Just consider how many of us had our GMail accounts and now have Android phones updating contacts, photos and what not. Maintaining those services, by using more Android devices, becomes kinda important if we still need easy access to all that data. (this is just as an example)

 

 

As Ravenzino and others have also said ... it may make sense in some cases. But I fear how quickly it has the potential to ruin the demographics.

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Ads in a game could definitely work, especially if they could be relevant to the game. For example, sports games. Also, I recall there being some fervor about ads potentially being in Deus Ex Human Revolution. Given the genre, ads would've been welcome as part of the critique it offered on corporate and consumer culture.

 

This won't work for DCS, for one simple reason.

 

Google is an advertising company and exists solely to sell ads.

 

In DCS, unless you're in a chopper (or playing Combined Arms) we're just gonna be too damn high up to see the billboards.

 

:music_whistling::pilotfly:

 

Dohohohoh.

 

But, on serious note, Google also has the collective attention span of a five year old. I wish I could have read this on Google Glass.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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  • 10 months later...

Stadia could be the next amazing thing for DCS. The way it is set up, DCS could actually run a single online multiplayer server AT WORLD SCALE simultaneously with tens of thousands of players all playing at the same time in the same world seamlessly. It's capability to scale and eliminate the need for players to have $2k PCs to play it well would be HUGE for the game and the players.

 

The main limitations right now are the lack of support for complex controller inputs (HOTAS and Track IR-like setups), but those can be accomplished. I already play Stadia using KB&M and it's frankly AWESOME from a technical performance perspective.

 

Stadia is definitely NOT just for console kiddies at all...

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Stadia DOES use Edge Computing. The latency to Stadia and back is around 1ms for me. Stadia can render and return a 4k HDR frame to you faster than your eye processes the frame change.

 

I know because I built the Edge PoPs for Google...

 

Right. I noticed your first post ... but we need a few points and differing opinions to have a discussion, right? ;)

 

 

I am not throwing the idea in the bin either because considering businesses, it may happen eventually; Microsoft wanted Windows to be provided on a SaaS model.

But I am not a big fan of SaaS and prefer on-premises installations. Consider this, for instance ... ED came up with a new licensing system, but had to provide a few days' "backup" in case someone was playing without an Internet connection. No matter how advanced we get, the whole world does not move at the same pace and you will have islands / pockets where you have high bandwidth, low latency connections, and the regular ones. So, this solution may not be feasible for all and if they deploy it in high-tech societies, then the monetary benefits may not really help as such a society will probably have the purchasing power anyway.

 

 

To further discuss ...

1. Latency. Broadly agree on your points but I doubt Stadia will use edge computing. It will just increase the costs unless you see large-scale acceptance.

 

 

2. Higher bandwidth will become available, but we will need newer network protocols as well, for better throughput. Considering you are techie yourself, you'd know that low latency data generally uses UDP, but TCP sessions are known to result in slight packet loss on the line as they throttle. The simple solution is QoS but how many ISPs or home routers implement it properly? Then there's the point I was trying to make by mentioning IPv6; adoption will take a long time unless the businesses see this as an absolute money-making idea.

 

 

3. Reliability will increase; agree. But as we get more people, we get more traffic and competing flows. Probably your neighbour feels that his VoIP call should be higher priority than your games. Or 20 of your neighbours suddenly figure they should all stream super high-def content together. It works even right now as well but as bandwidth increases, so much the quality of the content and then the bandwidth requirements.

 

 

 

4. Remote rendering is good, but that removes mods we use for aesthetics ... unless you do some post-processing locally as well. I figure it could be a hybrid model with rather than the full rendered frames being sent, perhaps computed data could be sent. I remember that in the last decade, ATI had come up with an idea that if you had 100 boxes in a frame, just calculate it once and then copy it all over. Similarly, process the raytracing etc. and let the local device render it? There are render farms and computer clusters already, right? It's all essentially data in the end.

 

 

 

5. I'd rather not comment on the cost part. :)

 

 

 

A few merits ...

1. No more desync issues if everyone is coming from the same source

2. Perhaps some tasks could be offloaded to the cloud to have a hybrid approach, rather than full Stadia. I can think of CPU-intensive tasks for scripts, AI control etc. Maybe, some heavier GPU tasks could also be done remotely and then sent back. I recall a few research papers on Predictive models for CPUs, through ML. Maybe that could help prepare stuff before it is needed by the client, and that could be a good way to avoid latency.

3. It could be cheaper than maintaining a gaming PC and a games library (although Steam Sales help), and could see success similar to Netflix, Spotify and others. But as with the different stores / licenses thing ... how long will it last?

 

 

 

And additional points

1. ED would likely need to run the dedicated server if Merit (1) is to be achieved, in hand with Google. Although, I am not sure if we want to give a single entity as much power ... look at how a few games got blocked in Iran due to political reasons.

2. What about mods etc. we so fondly do for single player games? In case of DCS, many people use texture mods, or reshade for aesthetic reasons. That goes out of the picture (1987kess mentioned this)

3. I am not a big fan of subscribing, instead of buying stuff. With subscriptions (and I am talking of more games than just DCS), you are the mercy of your subscription service provider. Often times, I watched a movie or series on Amazon Prime / Netflix and then later found it removed. There was a famous case with Apple last year where a person purchased a song but then lost access to it because Apple figured they will not carry it further. We are gamers and some of us even play games from the last decade. Will these services maintain an exhaustive list of all games? Even GOG or Steam don't do that

4. Do we really need that much reliance on clouds in our lives? What if you have a freak el-nino and lose all your data as the clouds fly away :P

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When I saw their presentation stating a local PC running at 60fps having a latency of 100ms, I knew they don't know Jack at Google.

 

Although I must say, Streaming does work quite well within a GBE environment since I play VR wireless on my Quest connected to a 866MBit/s WiFi with exactly that part being the thing that does add latency of somewhere around 20-30ms that I don't really notice unless I actually try to.

 

Point is, you'd need perfect conditions over a large scale you don't have any control of mostly when that goes over the internet. Within a LAN, you can manage everything like switching off other clients, putting WiFi devices onto the 2.4GHz band etc to ensure the full bandwith. But OTOH when it comes down to the internet, even with a 100MBit/s connection I rarely ever can watch a YouTube video even in 720p lag-free. I really don't want to stream-play games from the same company, since it must be similarly horrible or even worse...

 

And it's things like modding or even being able to access your own savegames or configs directly on a local installation that puts me off of stream-playing over the internet. You'd be contacting support for lots of things you could fix yourself at home.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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