Normandy Map Discussion

We should have steam engine train from the start. But I'm not sure about damaging railways. As I understand this feature isn't presented in DCS at all.

To clarify, is this simply a re-skin of the existing trains or will the steam locomotives in Normandy/2.0 be objects a mission designer can manipulate? While you can "destroy trains" now, they have always been (for the most part) disconnected from mission parameters and objectives. Basically just scenery.

With the eventual introduction of the Thunderbolt, this would make a big difference to the pilots interested in the Air-to-Ground experience.

EDIT: It would be a great nod to include the full essence of the Jug's fearsome reputation, the namesake of the quintessential DCS product.

We should have steam engine train from the start. But I'm not sure about damaging railways. As I understand this feature isn't presented in DCS at all.

Thanks for the reply Racoon. Just to say that the railway infrastructure was crucial to the ground war for ground army operational effectiveness. Railway systems were major targets for air forces, especially for the Allies in 1944/45. We would need proper modelling of the railway system if DCS is to deliver WWII and historic ground attack mission capability. Mission builders need to be able to position and run train routes and timetables. Marshalling yards, sheds, Stations, locomotives, carriages and bridges need damage modelling. Ground attack by fighters and fighter bombers of various types was crucial to the Allied invasion plan and liberation of the continent.

I would love to see DCS as the WWII flight simulation of choice for PC pilots, but we need a good interactive and dynamic map capability for mission builders in order to deliver and give pilots something tangible and realistic to do with the aircraft models they purchase. Otherwise we might just as well fly Nevada in the modern world and that is unlikely to generate and increase a decent customer base of WWII PC pilots. Perhaps you could have a word with whoever is leading the WWII project. Please forgive me if this is all in hand, but it should be one of the building blocks for delivering WWII on the Normandy map I would have thought.

The railway system moved tanks, troops, food, spares, everything you can think of that an army needs.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Thanks for the reply Racoon. Just to say that the railway infrastructure was crucial to the ground war for ground army operational effectiveness. Railway systems were major targets for air forces, especially for the Allies in 1944/45. We would need proper modelling of the railway system if DCS is to deliver WWII and historic ground attack mission capability. Mission builders need to be able to position and run train routes and timetables. Marshalling yards, sheds, Stations, locomotives, carriages and bridges need damage modelling. Ground attack by fighters and fighter bombers of various types was crucial to the Allied invasion plan and liberation of the continent.

I would love to see DCS as the WWII flight simulation of choice for PC pilots, but we need a good interactive and dynamic map capability for mission builders in order to deliver and give pilots something tangible and realistic to do with the aircraft models they purchase. Otherwise we might just as well fly Nevada in the modern world and that is unlikely to generate and increase a decent customer base of WWII PC pilots. Perhaps you could have a word with whoever is leading the WWII project. Please forgive me if this is all in hand, but it should be one of the building blocks for delivering WWII on the Normandy map I would have thought.

The railway system moved tanks, troops, food, spares, everything you can think of that an army needs.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Good post, agree 100%.

I would love to see DCS WW2 to develop just the way you describe here. :thumbup:

Fully agree, thanks to Talisman for bringing this up!

Railroads were of huge importance during WWII. And maybe we even get lucky and get them into our other maps in a more usable way as a side-effect. :)

Also thanks to Raccoon for being here and talking to the community about the map! We appreciate that. :)

Also, will we be getting lots of shipping and the crucial Mulberry docks at Omaha and Arromanches beach heads?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry_harbour

http://d-dayrevisited.co.uk/d-day/mulberry-harbour.html

Any sneak previews of any models for the Normandy map would be greatly appreciated Racoon.

Thanks in anticipation.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Also, will we be getting lots of shipping and the crucial Mulberry docks at Omaha and Arromanches beach heads?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry_harbour

http://d-dayrevisited.co.uk/d-day/mulberry-harbour.html

 

Any sneak previews of any models for the Normandy map would be greatly appreciated Racoon.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

+1 Bring it on! :)

I do understand importance of a trains for WWII scenarios. We have all major railroads in the Normandy map now. Big problem is that trains in DCS aren't objects for mission makers. So we should create this feature for sure.

:thumbup:

I do understand importance of a trains for WWII scenarios. We have all major railroads in the Normandy map now. Big problem is that trains in DCS aren't objects for mission makers. So we should create this feature for sure.

Ruh roh....scope creep! Hopefully it wont take tremendous code change to bring this feature in.

Ruh roh....scope creep! Hopefully it wont take tremendous code change to bring this feature in.

I don't think one can call it scope creep. It's a core feature of the WWII set in many ways.

I do understand importance of a trains for WWII scenarios. We have all major railroads in the Normandy map now. Big problem is that trains in DCS aren't objects for mission makers. So we should create this feature for sure.

Many thanks Racoon :)

Below you can see the reason it is important.

Comments from German Field Marshal von Rundstedt on the causes of the German defeat in the West, from the Intelligence Bulletin, March 1946

AIR POWER AT WORK

Systematic preparations by the Allied air forces caused the general collapse of the German defense, Von Rundstedt said. He cited three important factors.

First, there was the smashing of the main lines of communication, particularly the railway junctions. Although Von Rundstedt had planned the defense so that reserves could be moved to the threatened areas, Allied planes knocked out railway lines and made the shifting of troops impossible.

The second factor was the attack on roads and on marching columns, individual vehicles, etc., so that it was impossible to move by day. This made it extremely difficult to bring up reserves, and it also created a supply problem because fuel and ammunition could not be brought up.

Carpet bombing constituted the third factor. In certain respects, Von Rundstedt said, it constituted an intensified artillery barrage and knocked out troops in pillboxes or dug in ahead of the front line. It also smashed reserves in the rear.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/rundstedt/

Thank you again for all your work and for taking the time to give us feedback and updates. Good luck with the map.

Happy landings,

Talisman

I don't think one can call it scope creep. It's a core feature of the WWII set in many ways.

... Big problem is that trains in DCS aren't objects for mission makers. So we should create this feature for sure.

It sounds like to me it's a feature that wasn't initially implemented for the original project scope. The feature appears to require some alteration to the base code to make this work. To what degree I have no idea, but it again it sounds like it wasn't on the original task list.

EDIT...sounds like a creeper to me if they decide to bring this feature in before initial release.

There are two features actually:

- train as a object for missions;

- train as a transportation unit for warehouse-airfield supply system.

It takes time to make any of them.

Racoon thanks for the enlightment and for all the team do what you can. This sim has some serious promise! :)

Good move Racoon, expected see some progress in the future.

About them. Not bad if ED can follow the "logistic" with truck, packs, etc to recreate axis / allied logistic trains on Normandy.

I remember flying some missions near El Hotovo a couple of years ago in My A10C and strafeing trains. There were some nice explosions when I hit tank cars. Some cars and engine just turned black and looked burned out when hit. I haven't tried this in ages. Hope the explosion effect hasn't changed. Damage modeling on the train cars/engine (nice explosions and fire) is an important feature if we are so passionate about trains in Our WWII Map. If you hit a steam engine, it would be nice to see that big steam cloud release when the boiler is hit.

I'll have to target some trains tonight and see if anything has changed from what I remember.

In the mean time, anyone know what the current state is? Screens?

My concern over railway lines and their damage modelling would be a potential performance hit due to the extensive rendering of the lines and the damage. If trains can be modelled as vehicles and made to follow the path of existing 'painted' rail lines across the map that might be a good compromise. Specific sections of rail such as those near towns/depots etc. could be modelled.

Agreed, actual train lines themselves might not be so good to damage model; perhaps in the marshalling yards and stations only.

Trains/locomotives, engine sheds/workshops, station buildings and bridges would be the things to prioritise I would have thought. As long as the target can be put out of action with enough damage.

Happy landings,

Talisman

How much of a hit would this incur?

How much of a hit would this incur?

 

...

Nice! And add to that, not trying to make this into a wish list, if there was a way to repair/patch damaged area. Providing that there was a running campaign in the background. :)

I think it could be simplified to Maximise performance. If the rail tracks are a series of standard models say 10m lengths then when that are damaged they can be a standard animation and then the rail model for the damaged section is hidden so a gap can seen and this would then derail a train.

I remember flying some missions near El Hotovo a couple of years ago in My A10C and strafeing trains. There were some nice explosions when I hit tank cars. Some cars and engine just turned black and looked burned out when hit. I haven't tried this in ages. Hope the explosion effect hasn't changed. Damage modeling on the train cars/engine (nice explosions and fire) is an important feature if we are so passionate about trains in Our WWII Map. If you hit a steam engine, it would be nice to see that big steam cloud release when the boiler is hit.

 

I'll have to target some trains tonight and see if anything has changed from what I remember.

In the mean time, anyone know what the current state is? Screens?

I think that the visual is still there and you can in fact destroy them.

I do understand importance of a trains for WWII scenarios. We have all major railroads in the Normandy map now. Big problem is that trains in DCS aren't objects for mission makers. So we should create this feature for sure.

Thanks for the confirmation, Racoon. As it wasn't a core element of DCS in the past I did imagine it'd be a sizable "addition" to have the trains become a configurable mission item. Happy to hear you agree it would be a valuable improvement for WWII and hopefully it would not cause a huge performance hit. I'd imagine, without much real knowledge on the subject, that the trains could behave like a convoy of existing ground units do where they all can follow paths and can all be destroyed with minimal FPS hit. I'm sure it's a bit more complicated but from this perspective, not impossible.

There are two features actually:

- train as a object for missions;

- train as a transportation unit for warehouse-airfield supply system.

It takes time to make any of them.

Yup, would be great, but probably a huge undertaking, would be nice to see in the future, but certainly would take some time.

I dont think it's a difficult problem.

Trains use rail/road networks. Same as ground units.

Since cars able to follow route "on road" this will be a quick add for trains: follow route "on rails". New feature should be the train consist/compilation as well.