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Pitch and yaw on gazelle is "rolling over"


AtomMrav

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I have exactly the same problem. And I am out of ideas how to solve it.:noexpression:

 

Are you guys with issues all have FFB-Sticks? maybe thats the point?

 

My Warthog set does not feature FFB and has a spring tension to center (which is not how sticks in a real helicopter work to admit). Maybe that´s the point we I can fly without that described wobbling or roll over and you can´t.

 

As I have no experience with FFB sticks: what happens if you disable FFB completely (yes I know thats not what you want) but just for a test. I guess the FFB stick with disabled FFB-function does not stay in center position (due to lack of center spring?) - am I right? And that may cause the instability you experience.

 

Then of course we have to talk to PolyC about the implementation of FFB in their PFM....there may be some inconsistencies that make it almost impossible for FFB users to keep her straight.

 

But that´s just a wild guess.

 

@AtomMrav: accepted - and believe me - I know your pain :thumbup:

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The pitch and yaw input appears to slowly but almost unstoppably roll over and run away and only very hard corrections in the other direction can stop it. For example banking a bit, keeps adding input until it "runs away" unless stopped by input in the other direction.

I have read documentation, axes setup guides and i can't solve this problem. I have reinstalled my hotas drivers, calibrated everything, reinstalled Gazelle module, and it is still the same. I have tested with all other aircrafts and helicopters and everything works fine except gazelle.

FFB option is turned off. Curves are set to 20.

 

I am playing on DCS 2.5. I had the same problem on DCS 1.5.

 

Please guys, can someone help me with this?

 

Okay I responded to a post in this thread and hadn't actually read this OP. I've done all of this too.

 

Yes it does seem to just wonder in pitch and roll even from what would pass and does in Huey and Mi-8 and KA-50 as "balanced" you can let go of the sick for a short time and do something, do that with the Gazelle and she will try to kill you. :cry:

 

I have also asked this question and not got a satisfactory answer.

 

Yet it feels so stable rolled over at near on 90 degrees doing a turn a couple of meters off the ground. I like well all the helicopters but it's between the Mi-8 and the Gazelle that mostly get log book time currently.

 

For me building a cyclic and collective out of a cheap joystick made the Gazelle so much more flyable and well all the helicopters so much more flyable.

 

I effectively have a 25cm extension on the cyclic and run currently 80% saturation for X and Y and that seems responsive enough. I might experiment stepping that back toward 90 or 100% now with trying a dead zone although using a dead zone shouldn't be necessary as it kinda defeats not having a center detent it's the electrical equivalent of the mechanical center detent that I got rid of.

 

I am currently working on a complete home brew V-Sim Pit with higher resolution input devices to see if my current setup is the source of my problem. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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If FFB is disabled (or any deadzone or saturation changes cause a disparity between the stick and FFB motor effects) it simply reverts to acting like any other stick, only it's using motors instead of springs for centering. It doesn't become slack or lose functionality.

 

Pretty sure I had the same experience using a T16000 (which afaik uses the same sensor as the warthog), but I could plug it in to find out if anything's changed.

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Are you guys with issues all have FFB-Sticks? maybe thats the point?

 

My Warthog set does not feature FFB and has a spring tension to center (which is not how sticks in a real helicopter work to admit). Maybe that´s the point we I can fly without that described wobbling or roll over and you can´t.

 

As I have no experience with FFB sticks: what happens if you disable FFB completely (yes I know thats not what you want) but just for a test. I guess the FFB stick with disabled FFB-function does not stay in center position (due to lack of center spring?) - am I right? And that may cause the instability you experience.

 

Then of course we have to talk to PolyC about the implementation of FFB in their PFM....there may be some inconsistencies that make it almost impossible for FFB users to keep her straight.

 

But that´s just a wild guess.

 

@AtomMrav: accepted - and believe me - I know your pain :thumbup:

 

 

 

Indeed yes we are seeing different behaviour at straight and level flight I do not have a FFB setup but experience this issue.

 

I get it that you need to put input in to the controls and that all the other helicopters also need more or less constant input. Also all the other helicopters experience some drift in roll and pitch for various reasons but it seems with the Gazelle the rate of effect is amplified unrealistically.

 

It's interesting that having a dead spot of 2 in X and Y stops this amplification of "presumably parasitic drag effects" and seems to masks the issue.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I have exactly the same problem. And I am out of ideas how to solve it.:noexpression:

 

Ok I tried it again.

 

Gazelle in straight flight (say 200km/hrs), SAS on, Autopilot not engaged, pushed MAGNETIC BRAKE for straight flight. If I then pitch down (with my stick) and do not re-trim (not with MAGNETIC BRAKE nor with TRIM HAT) it accellerates and levels off at straight level as before. No "out of control" behaviour, wobbeling etc.

I litterally can trim her to the attitude I desire (climb, straight, descent) using MAGNETIC BRAKE first and fine tuning with TRIM HAT after.

 

Are you guys sure that your trim is working correct or that it is set up the right way? We had a lot of confusion with trimming (and the use of Magentic brake vs trim hat).

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A10C, UH-1H, M2C, F5E, Gazelle, KA 50, F18C, DCS 2.5x OB

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the main rotor seems to lack gyroscopic precision.

 

its gyroscopic precision that allows us to cruise and turn smoothly in the other helicopters.

 

and its the lack of gyroscopic precision that feels so wrong in the gazelle.

 

a gyroscope wont fall over because i nudge it one way...

try it with a spinning top.

but the gazelle will

 

5 degrees nose down nudge and she will fall over

This is the issue. Everyone going on and on about stick settings is missing this. When you bank, putting the cyclic back to center is not enough to stop it from continuing to roll, you need cyclic in the opposite direction to arrest it. It doesn't feel right and it's not a stick problem or a settings problem.

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.

 

It's not about trimming. The trim system works fine and makes it easy to achieve stable flight at any desired attitude.

 

It's about achieving a similar degree of stable forward flight and turning without having to rely almost entirely on the trim system to do it all for you.

 

Try flying without trimming at all and see if you can maintain a forward pitch or turn without having to constantly move the stick around. First moving it to start the maneuver, and then back to prevent it from pitching/rolling over, and then out again to keep it going, on and on just to be somewhat stable.


Edited by Sephyrius
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Allright,

this time NO trimming at first, NO Magnetic brake. Stable take-off, forward flight, only few tick adjustments to maintain straight or turn.

Definitely NO tendency to pitch violently or roll over - even in hard banked turns.

##

 

I must sound odd to you - but I have still no issues. Flying around currently on 104th MP Longbow and really have to throw it around.

 

Sorry man.

 

But question: if trimming brings stable flight for you - why woud you try to fly without Magnetic brake and trim?? The EC135 guys always use trim to ease flight....

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A10C, UH-1H, M2C, F5E, Gazelle, KA 50, F18C, DCS 2.5x OB

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This is the issue. Everyone going on and on about stick settings is missing this. When you bank, putting the cyclic back to center is not enough to stop it from continuing to roll, you need cyclic in the opposite direction to arrest it. It doesn't feel right and it's not a stick problem or a settings problem.

 

Hi Gents,

This will be fixed in a next update, Thanks for your patience.

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Hi Gents,

This will be fixed in a next update, Thanks for your patience.

 

Awesome! Thanks.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Hi Gents,

This will be fixed in a next update, Thanks for your patience.

This news made my night. Thanks a lot! <3 :)

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@Sephyrius

 

Finally someone who completely understands my problem.

 

@docWilly

 

It is not violent pitch or roll over. I'll try to explain:

You are flying straight flight, and you move stick slightly forward (in my case 2-4 degrees), and your nose should drop for example 5 degrees and stop there for that amount of joystick input. But in my case it slowly continues to pitch until I center my joystick, and then nose is also leveled.

I'll try to make video, so you can get better understanding of what I mean.

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@AtomMrav....thanks man, that would be nice as I can not reproduce that behaviour with my non-FFB stick (Warthog)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]my rig specs: i7-4790K CPU 4.50GHz, 32GB RAM, 64bit WIN10, NVidia GeForce GTX 980 Ti, SSD+

 

A10C, UH-1H, M2C, F5E, Gazelle, KA 50, F18C, DCS 2.5x OB

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@docWilly

 

Here is the video.

As you can see, for minimal forward joystick input, nose goes down until I center my joystick.

For every other plane/helicopter when i move stick slightly forward, my nose angel stops at certain point, but that is not the case with gazelle.

So, tell me now, is that normal behavior for gazelle? Is it the same on your side?

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@AtomMrav: To me it looks as if you pull the stick back. the Gazelle would never, even with SAS on in DCS level the nose back to normal that fast. Sorrry, this can only be achieved with stick inputs that fast as seen in yur video. SAS wil level the nose if you do not reset the nose additude with magnetic, or cooliehat trim.

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@AtomMrav: To me it looks as if you pull the stick back. the Gazelle would never, even with SAS on in DCS level the nose back to normal that fast. Sorrry, this can only be achieved with stick inputs that fast as seen in yur video. SAS wil level the nose if you do not reset the nose additude with magnetic, or cooliehat trim.

 

Well, he did say that he centered the stick after a while - it was either that or crash into the ground since even with this minimal amount of input the downward pitch just keeps going and going.

 

So if that is normal flight behaviour, does that mean that the pilot basically just uses the cyclic to set the desired attitude for the magnetic break/cooliehat trim for each maneuver and then lets it hold it for him instead of "hands-on" flying?

 

I'd turn off the SAS system, but the 'going and going' effect of stick input makes it difficult to see how to fly in a stable manner.


Edited by Sephyrius
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@borchi_2b

 

Have you seen how little input i have applied? You almost can't notice it on axes input screen in left corner of screen.

And Gazelle is very light helicopter and very sensitive to input, so, she is capable of fast direction changing. It is not like Mi-8, who has input delay.

 

But that's not a reason why I made this thread. I will repeat myself, my only problem is that with minimal joystick input the downward / upward pitch just keeps going and going. With that problem it is impossible to fly by hand. You can't make stable turns etc...

 

I feel that Sephyrius is the only one who can completely understand me. Probably because he has the same problem. You have to experience that to be able to understand it completely.

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.

 

Weird thing is, I turned off FFB - I knew it broke the cooliehat trim but used mostly the magnetic brake anyways - and now it seems to be working great. There's no centering force at all though and haven't gotten SimFFB to implement that either.

 

The SAS tries to compensate after a few seconds as you'd expect , and after disabling it and the gyros it's really hands-on and handles wonderfully. Now I just gotta figure out how to get that centering force back.

 

Maybe double-check that it's off? I'm gonna keep having to switch it on and off since I use it for other modules, seems to affect behaviour even if not using FFB sticks too (which is why the same thing happened when I used a separate lever for cyclic pitch testing making me think it wasnt a FFB issue).


Edited by Sephyrius
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@AtomMrav,

 

thank you for the effort to make a video. I watched it several times.

 

As I said before I do not experience this behaviour and I guess thats because I do not have FFB stick but spring centered (with a minimal deadzone to compensate for erratic stick inputs - either by me or by my hardware). It seems that the "goin and going" is caused by your FFB (you are using one , right?). This maybe due to calibration, motor movement of stick or something like that.

 

As borchi/sephyrius said, SAS compensates -using magnetic brake or not - has no influence as long as SAS is working.

 

So the only thing to look at is - beside your setting/Config/Hardware - an interference with implemented FFB logic...but that´s a thing borchi is the one to look into (or test with FFB sticks - if not already done).

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]my rig specs: i7-4790K CPU 4.50GHz, 32GB RAM, 64bit WIN10, NVidia GeForce GTX 980 Ti, SSD+

 

A10C, UH-1H, M2C, F5E, Gazelle, KA 50, F18C, DCS 2.5x OB

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@docWilly

 

I don't use FFB stick. My stick is Saitek x55, it is a spring centered stick. And I have disabled FFB option in Misc. settings.

Two wild guesses:

1) I don't own the Gazelle yet, but I think an alternative FFB behavior was introduced for it. And to turn it off you have to do so in the "Special" tab for the Gazelle. I might be wrong.

2) This is a real long-shot. Historically there has been situations with DCS that after an update a certain setting loose it's "effect" (or however I should put it). Mening for instance if you want a particular setting activated with a tick in a box and have that working before the update. After the update that setting is no longer active, despite the tick still being there. The cure was in those cases to remove the tick, save and close DCS, start it again, add the tick again and save. Worth a try.

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Please excuse that I didn't read the whole thread, but I just posted a short guide for setting up helicopter controls,

especially pointing out curvature/saturation settings for the cyclic pitch and roll axis :)

I use these settings with the DCS: SA-342 Gazelle and I never had any problems flying this aircraft :)

Controls guide for helicopters... Or: Why you should avoid using curvature

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