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April in the land of VEAO - Wall of text inc!


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That's basically what I said? :dunno:

 

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While we will try to make it as bug free as we can when 2.0 comes along I cant promise it 100% because that is the nature of the beast.

 

It should be a good improvement for everyone, even if some of the changes are not immediately obvious. There will be testing spots in the future for those who want to be early adopters.

 

Pman

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I really hope that everything VEAO has planned will go smoothly. Best of luck to you guys, I hope you won't hit too many snags on the way.

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I am so bitterly disappointed by this notice. I have been a staunch defender of the Hawk and the potential it has. I have been following updates from you re Hawk 2 and I was so excited to see that comming. You have previously indicated that work was well underway. But now it appears you have not even started with 2.0. I'm.not sure what I can believe from you any more.

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I am so bitterly disappointed by this notice. I have been a staunch defender of the Hawk and the potential it has. I have been following updates from you re Hawk 2 and I was so excited to see that comming. You have previously indicated that work was well underway. But now it appears you have not even started with 2.0. I'm.not sure what I can believe from you any more.

Where do you get that from?

 

I read something about the PBR textures well on track, continuous work on the code for Hawk 2.0...

 

(...)"We have also been working on some of the external PBR textures and the internal cockpit PBR update, the external work has been completed and will, like the taxi fix, go out in the next patch.(...)

Work is also underway on restructuring and coming to grips with Hawk 2.0 (note not Hawk T2) and we have been working away on that as well"(...)

Shagrat

 

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Work is "underway" at no point have I given any indication as to how advanced it is, because of the task at hand we have to pretty much write everything again. Granted not all of it but huge chunks of it. This is ongoing and I won't give any indication of a release window for it yet.

 

Pman

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I got the impression it was well under way, mustn't have read it properly.

 

Probably because it has been spoke about for over 6 months now. As I remember, starting in early 2018 substantial resources would move to the HAWK 2.0 rewrite, while work continued...

 

Now..

After this update...I've taken it as work on HAWK 2.0 will start now'ish (2018-2019)

And it's a major re-write of the coding man....so...

The contract for the HAWK was awarded in 2012 and the first release was in late 2014, i'ts now 2018 so... for a full re-write to complete...maybe what?....... 4-5 years? sound about right?

Just a little less than the original coding minus any diversions from different versions of DCS World and scrapping the multi crew functionality. So I'd expect work is ongoing and will continue until maybe 2022-2023.

 

Intended as some clarification and open discussion. Not aimed at insulting sensitive Developers or derailing the thread.


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Probably because it has been spoke about for over 6 months now. As I remember, starting in early 2018 substantial resources would move to the HAWK 2.0 rewrite, while work continued...

Work and announcements started in 2017, if I remember correct.

 

Now..

After this update...I've taken it as work on HAWK 2.0 will start now'ish (2018-2019)

And it's a major re-write of the coding man....so...

No, is already in the works for quite a while, as Pman said in the first post, the update to the PBR textures for the external model are finished and will be released with the next patch, and the update to PBR for the cockpit textures is almost finished. Maybe they manage to get them into the next patch, as well, but they can't promise.

 

The contract for the HAWK was awarded in 2012 and the first release was in late 2014, i'ts now 2018 so... for a full re-write to complete...maybe what?....... 4-5 years? sound about right?

No. When they started back then, the announcements were very clear about them starting as a developer, and them needing to learn and develop the necessary skills. The original Hawk was pretty much a testbed and training for them to learn producing DCS modules in the DCS World ecosystem (especially coding wise).

As was communicated a lot of times during the last years, they learned a lot procedure wise, learned to avoid certain issues (ultimately leading to the Hawk 2.0 decision long ago) and keep in mind, some setbacks and delays were encountered, that took months to be diagnosed, and all that during the transition from DCS 1.2 to 2.5.

Just a little less than the original coding minus any diversions from different versions of DCS World and scrapping the multi crew functionality. So I'd expect work is ongoing and will continue until maybe 2022-2023.

Don't think so, as the original code was produced by one developer, who left the team(s) and the recode is under work for quite a while in the background (as per the posts in this very forum).

If everything goes well, plus some minor issues you always have, I would expect this to be considerably faster than the original development.

 

Intended as some clarification and open discussion. Not aimed at insulting sensitive customers or derailing the thread.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Not every person that use DCS stand-alone or on Steam will read the forums or reviews. This module is still being sold at 39.99$. I am happy to hear that work is being done to re-code the Hawk, but selling a broken product for that price is not okay in my book. And by broken I mean basic stuff like not being able to taxi for months or have working radios, invisible gunpods, ridiculous damage model and bombs that "re-appears" on the pylons. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

 

Not cool to old or new DCS customers as on page, it just looks like any other a high quality module. It was very close, three persons from our flightgroup almost bought the Hawk, but we managed to catch them in time from making a mistake. Happy to hear that work is being done, but the product description on storepage is very deceptive to the product being sold atm.

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No, is already in the works for quite a while, as Pman said in the first post, the update to the PBR textures for the external model are finished and will be released with the next patch, and the update to PBR for the cockpit textures is almost finished. Maybe they manage to get them into the next patch, as well, but they can't promise.

 

I was under the impression HAWK 2.0 was the code rewrite and not the PDR/texture/modeling improvements?

 

No. When they started back then, the announcements were very clear about them starting as a developer, and them needing to learn and develop the necessary skills. The original Hawk was pretty much a testbed and training for them to learn producing DCS modules in the DCS World ecosystem (especially coding wise).

As was communicated a lot of times during the last years, they learned a lot procedure wise, learned to avoid certain issues (ultimately leading to the Hawk 2.0 decision long ago) and keep in mind, some setbacks and delays were encountered, that took months to be diagnosed, and all that during the transition from DCS 1.2 to 2.5.

 

But as I understand it they have been trouble shooting issues with the old code base since the early days till 2017. Not working on the new code base at all till late 2017, where they will as you say have to re-learn and develop the necessary skills for HAWK 2.0 especially if the original coder is no longer with them. So to assume anything less than a two year project or even closer to my original prediction would be just setting yourself up for disappointment no?

Using the P-40F as an example, using what they already learned from the HAWK 1.0 it has taken a number of years to get to where they are now.

 

Intended as some clarification and open discussion. Not aimed at insulting sensitive customers or derailing the thread.

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I was under the impression HAWK 2.0 was the code rewrite and not the PDR/texture/modeling improvements?

 

 

 

But as I understand it they have been trouble shooting issues with the old code base since the early days till 2017. Not working on the new code base at all till late 2017, where they will as you say have to re-learn and develop the necessary skills for HAWK 2.0 especially if the original coder is no longer with them. So to assume anything less than a two year project or even closer to my original prediction would be just setting yourself up for disappointment no?

Using the P-40F as an example, using what they already learned from the HAWK 1.0 it has taken a number of years to get to where they are now.

 

Intended as some clarification and open discussion. Not aimed at insulting sensitive customers or derailing the thread.

As I read from the announcement of the Hawk 2.0, it is the overhauling of the complete old stuff, from the DCS World 1.2 engine/API to the new 1.5/2.5 including upgrading the visuals, FM and systems to the new effects and possibilities introduced with DirectX 11 and EDGE. Textures update to PBR, external and cockpit, after they did one rework of the cockpit for the old model, already.

The code rewrite is underway since quite a while and I am sure the PBR textures were not done on an afternoon, last week.

 

While fixing game breaking bugs in the old code is likely a liability, it does not mean other team members wait for the specific fixes to be ready to continue their work.

 

I'll never understand why people think of software development like a one man show, while in reality it is a typical industry with multiple "departments", "production teams", "research" and even "sales"...

 

The parallelization of tasks is a common scheme in production and software development is not different.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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And as for the P-40F. They did indeed use the knowledge from developing the Hawk. That is why the development of a piston engine model, a detailed complex hydraulics and mechanical system for the gear/flaps and a lot of very detailed "quirks" as Pman calls them,has not taken 3-4 years. I've already flown an early alpha of the P-40F in Duxford juli 2016, and I don't mean a "dummy", but a first and nicely handling implementation with EFM, systems down to handcranking the gear with a pump lever etc. so maybe, just maybe your assumptions on timeframes and workload are based on, well, the wrong assumptions?

 

I highly recommend some of the posts, Chris and Pete put in the VEAO section of this very forum. Some interesting info.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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I understand this but as far as i was aware VEAO is a very small team working part time on DCS modules is it not?

As far as I understood, there are at least two different tems. Working Jets (Hawk) and WWII prop planes (P-40F), at least that was the case in 2016.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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just maybe your assumptions on timeframes and workload are based on, well, the wrong assumptions?

Most likely you are correct, however I am lead to these assumptions due to a lack of detailed information or tangible updates, with only a track record to go by.

 

Hence my attempt to prepare John for what i believe to be a relatively plausible time frame where any presumptions of an impending release are stomped out to avoid disappointment. :thumbup:

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VEAO..... uhmmmm what to say ......

 

Dudes, I have been using programs, games and sims since ZX 81 Sinclare... I have a full understandning of, Alpha, Beta and other >non/consumer ver.

I bought the Hawk, right from the start.... And It has failed to deliver. I have tryed several times to get a refund, but with no luck. I dont understand why, VEAO is allowed to stay in DCS regi.

Regarding my parked Hawk, I do think about, using the consumer law in Denmark, to force VEAO into a return.

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Blimey I go away for a weekend and all sort of posts :lol:

 

Hawk re-write has been going on in the background since 2017, the guys working on it put it to one side to try and work on the taxi issue as this became more and more problematic I diverted more resource into it until it was resolved. Now those guys are back on the Hawk revamp, I am not going to get into the "when" game with this, it's done when it's done to use an old adage.

 

We have actually been utilizing experience gathered during the development of the P-40 to put back into Hawk and build Hawk 2.0 into a much more rounded product. Remember that aside from Chris none of the original Hawk team work for us any more, so any lessons learnt from the development of that product are pretty much redundant, not that I would go down the same route as the original team anyway but that is besides the point.

 

I have given an update on the P-40 in my original post and when we are ready to share more we will.

 

More regular updates and previews will follow when the module is with ED and in the build up to release. The other ways to see development updates on P-40 is on the occasional stream I may do or to see the module at a public demo we may happen to attend.

 

I can't remember who mentioned it in the thread but to confirm we do have separate teams working on Hawk and our other projects. There was an amount of cross over with some of the bugs with Hawk but in general they are pretty separate. While there are over 20 people working on various projects around the family we are all work on DCS in addition to our day jobs.

 

Lastly please do remember that small fixes and updates are going out with Hawk pretty much every patch but our man hours are not limitless and some bugs will be resolves with the re-code, of course if something game breaking like the wind bug happens we will attend to it as fast as we can. This next patch there are a number of fixes for some electrical logic, fuel system, Flight model updates as well as PBR texture improvements.

 

We maintain that we are committed to carrying on development of P-40F and Hawk as well as other projects in the background, sadly these things take time.

 

More news soon.

 

Pman

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Really excited about the P-40 and also the historical campaign...but...what kind of campaign will it be? what will it fly against? Over which map?

 

Most likely the Cauc map because of availability for everyone, but maybe Normandy. The campaign is in the planning and adaptation stages at the moment.

 

It will mainly be a ground strike mission.

 

We are not working on any maps for DCS and have no plans to return to that development route. AI units have not been ruled out, however with the assets pack there is already an excellent source for period units in DCS.

 

We are cautious about making these things a prerequisite for the campaign, although the campaign itself will be free with the P-40 module.

 

Pman

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honestly the only thing i want is the eurofighter.......

but at least it's a good point we'll have an update for the hawk

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Eternally waiting for the P-40F, that was "two weeks" away from release when I bought it. Also waiting quite a bit for the Hawk to be fixed for so long that I am now waiting for the Hawk 2.0. I don't want or need status updates, just a DCS World 2.5xx update that includes one or both of these aircraft in a condition that is comparable to most of the other DCS modules. Dig in and get -er done. If the P-40 is ever finished and works well I will consider buying FSW version.

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Hi,

 

Did the use of smoke pods get fixed for the Hawk?

 

Good to see you are still working on this, and you are starting to talk optimistically about it's re-release.

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