Pitch UP when Carrier Launch with Auto Flap

I still have reservations about this thread suggesting ED tie up resources addressing a bug that only appears when the pilot mishandles the aircraft . Having said that , i was struck during a review of the Natops by the effects of a WOW system failure on takeoff . It describes an uncommanded pitch-up that cannot be controlled by forward stick alone . In such a case , it recommends keeping the speed under 180 , using nose-down trim , and notes that flaps should stay at 1/2 , because flaps "auto" exascerbates the pitch-up . You can search Natops "WOW" and read for yourself .

Someone else may want to chime in, but I'm pretty sure you can not manually adjust the elevator trim unless you're using half or full flaps.

You most certainly can trim elevator with flaps auto in DCS & IRL. The Blue Angels fly their routine nose trimmed down. :)

I still have reservations about this thread suggesting ED tie up resources addressing a bug that only appears when the pilot mishandles the aircraft . Having said that , i was struck during a review of the Natops by the effects of a WOW system failure on takeoff . It describes an uncommanded pitch-up that cannot be controlled by forward stick alone . In such a case , it recommends keeping the speed under 180 , using nose-down trim , and notes that flaps should stay at 1/2 , because flaps "auto" exascerbates the pitch-up . You can search Natops "WOW" and read for yourself .

I agree!

You most certainly can trim elevator with flaps auto in DCS & IRL. The Blue Angels fly their routine nose trimmed down. :)

I thought they had a custom spring in the cockpit to help produce the pitch down load for close flying.

"The Blue Angel F/A-18s have the nose cannon removed, a smoke-oil tank installed and a spring installed on the stick which applies pressure for better formation and inverted flying. Otherwise, the aircraft that the squadron flies are the same as those in the fleet. Each Blue Angel aircraft is capable of being returned to combat duty aboard an aircraft carrier within 72 hours."

Direct from the Blue Angels website: https://www.blueangels.navy.mil/faq/

Since, in the auto flaps up mode, any

uncommanded pitch rate or g is reduced to zero, the aircraft is constantly trimmed to steady state

hands-off 1 g flight and there is little or no occasion for manual trim .

...From the Natops

I still have reservations about this thread suggesting ED tie up resources addressing a bug that only appears when the pilot mishandles the aircraft . Having said that , i was struck during a review of the Natops by the effects of a WOW system failure on takeoff . It describes an uncommanded pitch-up that cannot be controlled by forward stick alone . In such a case , it recommends keeping the speed under 180 , using nose-down trim , and notes that flaps should stay at 1/2 , because flaps "auto" exascerbates the pitch-up . You can search Natops "WOW" and read for yourself .

It's not really up to us to decide the priority order for dealing with bugs - we should just report anything 'wrong' that we find and they can deal with it when they like, if at all. We shouldn't stifle bug reports just because we'd rather they spend their time on different things. I've seen a few new players killed by this bug and the solution isn't always 100% obvious for them.

For now players can fix this by either taking off in the correct configuration, or if they took off with flaps in auto, by flicking the flaps to half and back to auto.

I still have reservations about this thread suggesting ED tie up resources addressing a bug that only appears when the pilot mishandles the aircraft . Having said that , i was struck during a review of the Natops by the effects of a WOW system failure on takeoff . It describes an uncommanded pitch-up that cannot be controlled by forward stick alone . In such a case , it recommends keeping the speed under 180 , using nose-down trim , and notes that flaps should stay at 1/2 , because flaps "auto" exascerbates the pitch-up . You can search Natops "WOW" and read for yourself .

Thanks for good information. in F-18 NATOPS Flight Manuals,

"2.10.1.3 Weight-On-Wheels (WOW) System.

The aircraft may then quickly undergo an uncommanded pitch up which is caused by the large stabilator deflection present at takeoff. Normally, the stabilator deflection would be trimmed out automatically by the flight control system.

As airspeed increases, the uncommanded pitch up rate increases. Maintaining irspeed as slow as practical helps control nose pitch up and assists in lowering the aircraft’s nose."

Yes, I understand the abrupt pitch high condition, but my report is it can not trim down in auto flap mode, and gear down/up, flap full/auto can reset the abnormal trim up.

In, NATOPS

"Above 180 knots, full forward stick alone does not stop aircraft nose up rotation, so nose down trim is required to regain control of the aircraft.

The FLAP switch should also remain in HALF since the pitch up rate increases if the FLAP switch is moved to AUTO."

The manual does not say the trim SW is not work in AUTO Flap mode. it said half flap just help to normal flight.

"2.8.2.2.5 Pitch and Roll Trim Switch. Little if any pitch trim is required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point."

It said, pitch trim is just little required in Auto Flap mode, does not said not functional.

Did you catch What I issued?

The trim SW should be work in Auto Flap mode to stabilize the abnormal pitch up.

Half Flap just help it.

The stabilator isn't causing the pitch up - it's the LEF and TEF. You can see it on the FCS page, the stabilator returns to neutral if I'm remembering correctly.

The stabilator isn't causing the pitch up - it's the LEF and TEF. You can see it on the FCS page, the stabilator returns to neutral if I'm remembering correctly.

hey, it is not my word, the NATOPS manual said.

Please read my message again.

hey, it is not my word, the NATOPS manual said.

Please read my message again.

I know, I'm just clarifying that WOW issue isn't what's happening here - it's not the stabilator causing pitch up.

As far as I know, trim DOES work in Auto flaps mode, it's just really really slow for pitch trim (which I think I read was accurate) - I'm sure if you watch the FCS you'll see some numbers moving but it's nowhere near quick enough to tackle the violent pitch up the LEF/TEF are causing.

"If I don't use the correct procedures, things go wrong!" Simple solution - take off using the correct configuration. Why is it even an issue? Personally, I'd far sooner the devs ignored an aspect of the flight model that is fundamentally irrelevant.

Just bear in mind the fact that there are other far more relevant things being worked on right now, and even if there weren't, there is a switch that overcomes the problem very simply!

"If I don't use the correct procedures, things go wrong!" Simple solution - take off using the correct configuration. Why is it even an issue? Personally, I'd far sooner the devs ignored an aspect of the flight model that is fundamentally irrelevant.

 

Just bear in mind the fact that there are other far more relevant things being worked on right now, and even if there weren't, there is a switch that overcomes the problem very simply!

I agree.....again!!!!!

I know, I'm just clarifying that WOW issue isn't what's happening here - it's not the stabilator causing pitch up.

 

As far as I know, trim DOES work in Auto flaps mode, it's just really really slow for pitch trim (which I think I read was accurate) - I'm sure if you watch the FCS you'll see some numbers moving but it's nowhere near quick enough to tackle the violent pitch up the LEF/TEF are causing.

I don't agree with the pitch trim movement is different in Flap mode.

Trim Switch is for pilot not FCS.

"If I don't use the correct procedures, things go wrong!" Simple solution - take off using the correct configuration. Why is it even an issue? Personally, I'd far sooner the devs ignored an aspect of the flight model that is fundamentally irrelevant.

 

Just bear in mind the fact that there are other far more relevant things being worked on right now, and even if there weren't, there is a switch that overcomes the problem very simply!

Correct procedure is important, but nobody want to die just flap sw to auto.

It is military plane. Not a sports plane. And if the trim SW is work as in half flap, no problem.

Simple. Correct the Bug!

I don't agree with the pitch trim movement is different in Flap mode.

Trim Switch is for pilot not FCS.

Trim is different in different flap modes - if you've got the gear down and full flaps, then you're in approach mode and the trim is setting the AOA that the FCS targets, not a 'trim' in the traditional sense of the word like you'd find on something like the F-5E.

Trim is different in different flap modes - if you've got the gear down and full flaps, then you're in approach mode and the trim is setting the AOA that the FCS targets, not a 'trim' in the traditional sense of the word like you'd find on something like the F-5E.

Again, The manual said

"Little if any pitch trim is

required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control

computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point.

There is no mechanical lateral trim."

FCS function is same as your Mirage or F-16 Falcon4.0 or Janes FA-18 some years ago.

Just make the trim SW work in Auto Flap mode. Please

Again, The manual said

"Little if any pitch trim is

required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control

computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point.

There is no mechanical lateral trim."

 

FCS function is same as your Mirage or F-16 Falcon4.0 or Janes FA-18 some years ago.

 

Just make the trim SW work in Auto Flap mode. Please

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue now - trim does work in Auto Flap mode, it's just slow and it's not quick enough to overcome the violent pitch up like I just said a couple of posts ago.

The bug here is not trim, it's that the leading-edge flaps and trailing-edge flaps get stuck in a pitch-up position until you cycle the flaps switch. Trim works whether it's pitching up or not, whether you've cycled the flaps or not, the only difference is that the LEF & TEF aren't stuck on +30 after you cycle the flaps.

Again, The manual said

"Little if any pitch trim is

required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control

computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point.

There is no mechanical lateral trim."

 

FCS function is same as your Mirage or F-16 Falcon4.0 or Janes FA-18 some years ago.

 

Just make the trim SW work in Auto Flap mode. Please

MECH is a backup mechanical control for the stabilators it is not used in normal flight. Following copied directly from the 000:

"Pitch and Roll Trim Switch. Normally, movement of the pitch and roll trim switch

electrically biases the flight control computers and the stick does not move. Little if any pitch trim is

required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control

computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point.

There is no mechanical lateral trim."

And yes.. Trim is different for different flap settings.

MECH is a backup mechanical control for the stabilators it is not used in normal flight. Following copied directly from the 000:

 

"Pitch and Roll Trim Switch. Normally, movement of the pitch and roll trim switch

electrically biases the flight control computers and the stick does not move. Little if any pitch trim is

required in the auto flap up mode due to the automatic trimming functions within the flight control

computers. In MECH, pitch trim moves the control stick fore and aft, changing the stick neutral point.

There is no mechanical lateral trim."

 

And yes.. Trim is different for different flap settings.

No no... MECH means just "mechanically", There is no backup control in FA-18...

"There is no mechanical lateral trim." in last words in manual...

In Auto mode, I press tens of times and press hold some minutes. but no respond. it meas no work. may be the FCS number could be changed but may be the gain must be too low.

Make the trim for pilot, not the FCS... please

Wrong...again

No no... MECH means just "mechanically", There is no backup control in FA-18...

"There is no mechanical lateral trim." in last words in manual...

 

In Auto mode, I press tens of times and press hold some minutes. but no respond. it meas no work. may be the FCS number could be changed but may be the gain is too low.

 

Make the trim for pilot, not the FCS... please

No, no, no, no, no.....MECH IS the FCS backup in Roll and pitch when everything has failed!!!

2.8.2.10 Mechanical Linkage (MECH). Mechanical linkage provides backup control of the stabila-

tors for pitch and roll control. A MECH ON caution is displayed on the DDI. See FCS Failure

Indications and Effects, Chapter 15. In the mechanical mode, stick movement directly controls the

stabilator actuators bypassing all force sensors, the flight control computers, all air data, all motion

feedbacks, servos, and associated electrical wiring.

No no... MECH means just "mechanically", There is no backup control in FA-18...

"There is no mechanical lateral trim." in last words in manual...

You're incorrect - read 11.3.2 of the NATOPS, titled 'FCS Degraded Modes (DEL/MECH)' - MECH is the degraded mode when the FCS completely fails or you lose all electrical power.

No no... MECH means just "mechanically", There is no backup control in FA-18...

"There is no mechanical lateral trim." in last words in manual...

 

In Auto mode, I press tens of times and press hold some minutes. but no respond. it meas no work. may be the FCS number could be changed but may be the gain is too low.

You're wrong.

"Normally, inputs to the hydraulic actuators are provided by the two flight control computers (FCC A

and FCC B) through the full authority control augmentation system (CAS). A direct electrical link

(DEL) automatically backs up the CAS. DEL is normally a digital system but has an analog mode for

backup aileron and rudder control.If digital DEL fails, a mechanical link (MECH) automatically

provides roll and pitch control through a direct mechanical input from the stick to the stabilator

actuators. MECH bypasses both flight control computers and the stabilator actuator servo valves."

"Mechanical Linkage (MECH). Mechanical linkage provides backup control of the stabilators

for pitch and roll control. A MECH ON caution is displayed on the DDI. See FCS Failure

Indications and Effects, Chapter 15. In the mechanical mode, stick movement directly controls the

stabilator actuators bypassing all force sensors, the flight control computers, all air data, all motion

feedbacks, servos, and associated electrical wiring."

And in AUTO mode the trim does work but the aircraft will eventually trim back to 1G after a number of seconds.

I find this post very interesting, this post is making me understand the problem.

I'm new on this sim and the f-18 are a very complex aircraft for me, I'm using VR and always cold start so having this issue caused by my "lack of correct procedure problem" and the fact that is not the same thing "a flat screen or use VR". In the last variant due to the high immersion sensation, landing to end a flight is a must, is not a pleasant sensation just remove the headset and start a new mission, is a frustration sensation end a flight with a button and not in the airfield.

Land the plane with the plane having this mortal tendency and not know how to correct it is not a pleasant sensation, even more, when you hear the explosion at the end...an emptiness sensation becomes present.