Jump to content

Heat signature


Xechran

Recommended Posts

I checked on the m-2000 aircraft lua file:

IR emission coef is 0.8 (1 is Su-27 without afterburner. It is reference.)

IR emission coef_ab is 1.62

to compare with:

F-5E is 0.4/2

F-18 is 0.58/2.5

I didn't find those for Su-27 and F-15

I think it hepls to understand the discrepancy.

The question now is how this values are chosen?

 

My guess: It's more or less arbitrary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

M2000 is smaller than Su-27 -> thus maybe 0,8 vs 1 with no AB; F-5 is even smaller; F-18 is built to have a tiny RCS (even if not properly stealth) so maybe also IR signature is low.

M2000 is single engine, F-5 and F-18 are dual engine -> more heat when AB on.

I can see a logic in those numbers...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bingo!

 

Potential issues: Im on open beta. May roll back to stable today depending on what BlueFlag does.

 

The very first track I posted shows an FA-18 with AIM-9X getting tone at 8.5nm on a Mirage, and immediately losing it. Acquired solid tone at 3.5nm. Its not impossible to get tone depending on conditions and randomness, but its not steady and if I had launched in the moment I had tone it would have lost while in flight without even any countermeasure or maneuver.

 

 

Since AIM-9X is WIP, this isn't the best missile to test IR signature, better stick to FC3 AIM-9M for consistency :music_whistling:

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since AIM-9X is WIP, this isn't the best missile to test IR signature, better stick to FC3 AIM-9M for consistency :music_whistling:

 

 

Correct. Which is why the 9M was used in every setup but the first.

 

The first setup was just to explore the difference between the 9M and 9X. The M2k stood out as an obvious bug. Thus the subsequent iterations with the 9M. Noting that it did get tone for a fraction of a second is simply full disclosure. A 9M may also find tone, then, since the results of the tests are consistent across the two missiles. But its not stable and is likely to drop off. No other airframe does so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t think anyone has heat signature data as it is likely a classified matter. It is a function of mass flow through the engine and EGT. I would expect the mirage to be in the same ball park as the F16 maybe a bit less due to the anemic engine but definitely comparable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t think anyone has heat signature data as it is likely a classified matter. It is a function of mass flow through the engine and EGT. I would expect the mirage to be in the same ball park as the F16 maybe a bit less due to the anemic engine but definitely comparable.
I agree with this. I put more trust on ED's F-16 even its only an AI than Razbam M2K on this matter to be honest ;)

Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct. Which is why the 9M was used in every setup but the first.

 

The first setup was just to explore the difference between the 9M and 9X. The M2k stood out as an obvious bug. Thus the subsequent iterations with the 9M. Noting that it did get tone for a fraction of a second is simply full disclosure. A 9M may also find tone, then, since the results of the tests are consistent across the two missiles. But its not stable and is likely to drop off. No other airframe does so.

 

Open Beta, updated today.

 

As said above, around 6.5Nm...I don't know why don't get the same lock range ?

M-2000C AB IR Signature test.trk


Edited by jojo

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Open Beta, updated today.

 

As said above, around 6.5Nm...I don't know why don't get the same lock range ?

 

The same as a MiG21 and F5, i think the Mirage engine should be generating much more heat than those engines considering how much more power it has over those two don't you.

 

ED have a standard for Mirage why would Razbam choose not to use it and create DCS Frankenstein.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The same as a MiG21 and F5, i think the Mirage engine should be generating much more heat than those engines considering how much more power it has over those two don't you.

 

ED have a standard for Mirage why would Razbam choose not to use it and create DCS Frankenstein.

 

Look at RCS values and tell me about standards :music_whistling:

5.5m² for Flanker...

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amusing, but no. Heres yet another track. This time in f-15, as he did. Same issue as earlier tracks. All lock ranges consistent between F-15/18

 

Mirage 2k 3.5/3.5

F-15 14.5/4

F-16 11.5/3

etc etc.

 

The 2 Mirage are NOT in AB in this track :music_whistling:

 

So the problem is AI flight model. You can't fly that fast without AB in human controlled Mirage.


Edited by jojo

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 2 Mirage are NOT in AB in this track :music_whistling:

 

So the problem is AI flight model. You can't fly that fast without AB in human controlled Mirage.

 

 

Looks like thats got it! Increased AI speed to 970knots true and now get tone at 6nm as well.

 

Whether that is correct is a separate issue. The M2000-5 locks at 11nm, and uses the same engine iirc. Updated OP.


Edited by Xechran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like thats got it! Increased AI speed to 970knots true and now get tone at 6nm as well.

 

Whether that is correct is a separate issue. The M2000-5 locks at 11nm, and uses the same engine iirc. Updated OP.

 

 

Yep, but Mirage 2000-5 is original ED stuff.

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Power isn’t a measure of thermal signature. Low bypass engines create insane amounts of power with relatively low EGTs unlike the low bypass afterburning engines mounted on fighters. I am inclined to believe EDs M2000-5 engine signature is more correct in this matter than Razbams.

Maybe we could get an official statement?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found something strange during this test.

In f-15 if you slave the seeker to the radar you can obtain a lock from further than if you rely only from the missile seeker.

Normaly the radar just steer the misile seeker to the target. It dont make it more accurate.

This make me think the IR seeker model is realy simplistic.

Maybe deabate about realistic values is useless so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/AIM-9L_Sidewinder_SMC_-_November_1974.pdf

 

 

Ok, it's older variant (AIM-9L).

But it's said to lock head AB fighter around 28 000ft/ 4.6Nm range.

So 6.5Nm for AIM-9M isn't that bad.

 

Edit: 2Nm lock head on with MIL power.

 

 

Waiting for better source...


Edited by jojo

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, the Mirage is not bugged. Simply every. other. single. air frame in the sim is. And the RMAX computations on their fire control systems. Or it could be that your inference is a groundless stretch, and the one outlier should be brought in line.

 

If you have documentation that the 9m is out of line or bugged you should take that to ED separately. Think you'll need more than a document about a different seeker altogether, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, the Mirage is not bugged. Simply every. other. single. air frame in the sim is. And the RMAX computations on their fire control systems. Or it could be that your inference is a groundless stretch, and the one outlier should be brought in line.

 

If you have documentation that the 9m is out of line or bugged you should take that to ED separately. Think you'll need more than a document about a different seeker altogether, though.

 

The AI Mirage is bugged.

 

IR signature isn’t that bad, 6.5Nm on AB head on, I loose tone around 13Nm in tail aspect.

3.5Nm on dry power head on is more than what has been reported about AI F-16 (3Nm), but I have to check by myself.

 

Nobody was complaining about a failure to lock until that test where AI M-2000C was assumed to be AB but in fact running dry power at 93% RPM.

 

Yep I don’t have AIM-9M seeker data, but I didn’t have any open source to prove that the current tone range on Mirage is wrong either. It isn’t the right AIM-9M, but still it’s all aspect Sidewinder and it isn’t wild guess.

 

So if you have better source please share.

 

The pain in the a.. is when I take a R-60M head on by AI MiG-21Bis while my throttle is idle.

R-60M is supposed to be tail aspect only...

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

R-60M is a LIMITED all aspect missile. The R-60 is the tail aspect one

 

 

Yep, like this (Russian source it seems :book:)

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=128714&d=1448892061

 

 

But I'm talking about pure head on with idle throttle :music_whistling:

 

So I guess not everything works perfectly :D


Edited by jojo

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...