KA-50 RADAR Warning Receiver

Look at this they used zip ties to attach that panel to the left of the HUD. That thing can be RWR ED :).

Gotta love the zip ties! Already has glass cockpit, same as Ka-52. One wonders what secret Ka-50x sits in a hanger somewhere, ready to be mass produced, as a new, glorious Russia rises from the ashes.

Gotta love the zip ties! Already has glass cockpit, same as Ka-52. One wonders what secret Ka-50x sits in a hanger somewhere, ready to be mass produced, as a new, glorious Russia rises from the ashes.

OMG! Man, a new Ka-50 and after 30 years after first flight, I thinks it's Supersonic Capable XD.

Yeah!

Zip ties and duct tape would finalyze my love for this machine.

Good defence is all that is needed with this girl.

Do not confuse cause and effect.

1. The root cause of the Ka-50 becoming a single-seat helicopter is the requirements of the military technical order to surpass the AH-64A's flight performance. In this case, at that time (late 1970s), they had not even thought about any 'group leader' or 'target designator' for the Ka-50.
   

The KA-50 didn't have at that time the datalink even, as it was designed as recon and attack helicopter to replace the Mi-24.

• After creating and testing the first samples of the helicopter, it came to the realization that even with a high degree of automation of the machine, it would be difficult for one pilot to conduct reconnaissance and search for targets. 'Kamov' comes to the decision to create a specialized reconnaissance helicopter for the Ka-50. This helicopter was supposed to be the Ka-60, which began to be developed after 1984.
  

The KA-60 was never meant to be paired with the KA-50. The first KA-50 that got datalinks were put in operational use in second Chechen war, and it was paired with a KA-29 that got datalink equipment and ABRIS same as the KA-50 pair got upgraded.

KAMOV pilots knew that the single piloted KA-50 was easy and fast to fly without challenge by single pilot. But a attack group needs a leader that assigns the found targets (that are found by the KA-50) to the flight, and that is better done by a person who doesn't need to concentrate to the flying but manages the target assignments that it receives from wingmens and finds itself and stays away from the combat. Why KA-29 was great for that purpose.

• However, as a result of the economic and political upheavals in the USSR and then in Russia, in the late 1980s and then in the 1990s, the Ka-60 project first slowed down and then stopped altogether. In this regard, 'Kamov' decides to make a 'target designator' for the Ka-50 with minimal rework, and accordingly with minimal financial costs, but at the same time to give the new reconnaissance helicopter the functions of the 'group leader' for the Ka-50. So in 1996 came the Ka-52.
  

The KA-60 was not even in development until later at 90's. It did even the first maiden test flight 1998, regardless project started 1984. KA-60 is a utility helicopter, light recon, troop transport and evacuation. Nothing to operate behind the lines and in combat, not capable for self-defense even.

• After the creation of the Ka-52, the Russian military lost interest in the Ka-50, for the reason that the concept of a single-seat attack helicopter became irrelevant in the 21st century. The wars of the 21st century required equal use of the attack helicopter both day and night, including in adverse weather conditions. Military experts, including the developers of the JSC Kamov, recognized that the current stage of technical development, one pilot will not be able to fly a helicopter at extremely low altitudes and simultaneously search for targets at night and in adverse weather conditions. It will be very dangerous even with external target designation, and with a high degree of automation of the helicopter, with a modern FLIR, NVD, etc.
  

Just the opposite.

After the second chechen war, Russian government praised the KA-50 performance in low altitudes, dangerous adverse weather conditions that no other helicopter could perform at all as well. The pilots and field engineers made a recommendations to upgraded KA-50 standard. The version we have is the one that went to second war, and was used to draft the experiences and recommendations to be used making the upgraded serial production model. After the war and the drafting the recommendations, government ordered new field testings and where the upgrades to glass cockpit, self-defence suit (president-S) etc were made. And then government made the production order for the KA-50 and its training simulator, and as well speed up the newer KA-52 model that was meant to be the flight leader for KA-50 wingmens.

• After the final development of the Mi-28N and Ka-52 by the end of the 2000s, the Russian Ministry of Defense decides to accept these machines as the main attack helicopters for the Russian army. The project of the Ka-50 single-seat attack helicopter closes as obsolete, that is, as a project that does not meet the conditions of modern warfare.
  

The government made already orders for KA-50. They just didn't anymore fund the project for various reasons. The Kamov couldn't sell KA-50 to exports because foreign customers demanded two pilots in their attack helicopters. What was the reason for birth of KA-50-2, and finally to KA-52. The export sales were required for KAMOV as otherwise the KA-50 project didn't succeed. The KA-50 was accepted multiple times by the Russian government for the modern warfare, but it just didn't make because the lack of funding, and because Mi-28 took its place as Mi-24 replacement (that KA-50 was meant to be).

And selling two models (single and two-seated) was not affordable so single seated project was put on hold (but still developed well to 2010, just without sales).

What the KA-50 in DCS is, a variant that went to war, just getting the ABRIS upgrade but nothing else. After that war there has been 2-3 different major upgrades, that we do not have in DCS at all. The variant we have is relic from time that no more exist, but the KA-50 itself isn't in upgraded form that as further developed from the version we have. What we have in DCS: KA-50 is like having a F-16A from 1980 and comparing it to most modern F-16 variant there is today 2019 that we do not have as ED has no access to latest KA-50 variant there is made. No one would talk about F-16 performance and capabilities based to F-16A from 1980, but they would talk about what it is today in F-16C variant. So we shouldn't either talk about KA-50 performance by what it was 2001, but what it was 2008 with glass cockpit, self-defense suits etc etc.

In Chechnya, the Ka-29VPNTsU was used for the reason that the Ka-60 project had already been stopped, and the Ka-52 project had just begun to be developed. Therefore, at least some helicopter was needed, which would be the target designator for the Ka-50 during combat tests in Chechnya.

The KA-29 was used because it was fitting to the weather conditions and for flight performance. Two KA-27 and two KA-29 were assigned to the project from Navy and from Army.

The KA-50 didn't require external target designator, as it didn't use any weapons that were launched on the designated targets by second party. The attack group required a flight leader where a tactical decisions were made and commanded KA-50's to locations via datalink.

KA-60 was not meant for pairing with KA-50. Ever. And KA-52 was slowly going as military wanted single seated attack and recon helicopter, and KAMOV funded the two first units by itself to the project because it was way to get the funding. Later the government made order for upgraded KA-50 serial production and speed up the KA-52 development, this at 2005-2008.

The KA-52 is there because Kamov didn't have funding nor orders to put it in production. Instead it got KA-52 for exports and so on as well for sell it to Russian army for same price, but with ground and air radar capabilities.

Back to the topic, the President-S does offer a RWR capability. Not just detection but as well jamming capabilities via the turrets with 300-1000W power (more than the radar reflection back to the missile/radar itself as the turret will narrow the radio back).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3969030&postcount=367

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The President-S is not just capable to protect against IR guided missiles, but it as well detects emissions from the AAA radars as well fighters radars and is capable to jam those radars. Detection frequency scale is 1.2-18 Ghz and jamming frequency 4-18Ghz.

As the RWR detection heading is not mentioned it likely is accurate to 5-10 degrees, in 360 around and +-45 degrees horizontally.

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The KA-50 didn't have at that time the datalink even, as it was designed as recon and attack helicopter to replace the Mi-24.

 

The KA-60 was never meant to be paired with the KA-50…

Can I find out where you got all this from? Did you come up with this yourself?

… ISBN 5-7656-0005-0 (this book describes in detail the construction of the Ka-50, and it has an abbreviated translation into English)…

… Two KA-27 and two KA-29 were assigned to the project from Navy and from Army…

And by the way, can you clarify which "two Ka-27" you are talking about in this case?

I double check and Asked on the russian forum and the asnwer was the new ka-50 will not have RWR

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3954660&postcount=174

 

 

 

 

So ED please make plan for RWR and add it to the cost... use something already in the game. Anyway that's what the Russian do in real life...!

Back to the topic, the President-S does offer a RWR capability. Not just detection but as well jamming capabilities via the turrets with 300-1000W power (more than the radar reflection back to the missile/radar itself as the turret will narrow the radio back).

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3969030&postcount=367

 

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The President-S is not just capable to protect against IR guided missiles, but it as well detects emissions from the AAA radars as well fighters radars and is capable to jam those radars. Detection frequency scale is 1.2-18 Ghz and jamming frequency 4-18Ghz.

As the RWR detection heading is not mentioned it likely is accurate to 5-10 degrees, in 360 around and +-45 degrees horizontally.

What a great news but is it going to be in the game is the Question! Because When I asked on the Russian forums as seen above a Moderator said it's not going to have RWR! I think he meant at all!

But, oh man if it's going to be in the game like you have mentioned OMG!!!

Back to the topic, the President-S does offer a RWR capability. Not just detection but as well jamming capabilities via the turrets with 300-1000W power (more than the radar reflection back to the missile/radar itself as the turret will narrow the radio back).

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3969030&postcount=367

 

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The President-S is not just capable to protect against IR guided missiles, but it as well detects emissions from the AAA radars as well fighters radars and is capable to jam those radars. Detection frequency scale is 1.2-18 Ghz and jamming frequency 4-18Ghz.

As the RWR detection heading is not mentioned it likely is accurate to 5-10 degrees, in 360 around and +-45 degrees horizontally.

It is not RWR literally. Will help and will save your life, just it is not RWR.

Ka-50 will be blind for the radar signals and if you close up into the not return line, president-s will be useless. Also president-S have blind scanning situation in helicopters. For example in low flight and nose down flight in frontal aspect.

Do you mean that the Ka-50 installation does not include the RWR component?

Do you mean that the Ka-50 installation does not include the RWR component?

our ka-50 does not.

It is not RWR literally. Will help and will save your life, just it is not RWR.

The President-S system literally has the capabilities for radar receivers. Even likely in the IR/UV sensors itself. Just look the specs.

Ka-50 will be blind for the radar signals and if you close up into the not return line, president-s will be useless. Also president-S have blind scanning situation in helicopters. For example in low flight and nose down flight in frontal aspect.

President-S scanning range is 360 degrees horizontally (literally all around you) in 10-15 degrees accuracy for missile direction depending the sensor type. And 90 degree vertically (+-45 degrees) with likely a very slightly sensors pointed downward to cover more of the ground than sky because you are flying above the threat more often than below.

That is as well why the two cameras are on the nose as you can literally fly nose down and have it detect forward hemisphere completely.

In NOE flight (< 50 meters) the system still is working correctly and capable to detect the missiles flying toward it 40-45 degree upwards. So unless your missile threat is top of you and diving toward you, the system see the incoming missile.

As well look at the specs, system is designed to have a RF jammer in the turret itself as the same IR lamps are. Generating 300-1000W directional jamming power for RF.

all right. Anyway you never gonna know when you get into a threat zone and if the SAM let you get in enough, then President-S will not do anything in such a close distance. As you never got the radar signal, you will never know when you are in a Radar SAM threat.

It is not RWR literally. Will help and will save your life, just it is not RWR.

 

Ka-50 will be blind for the radar signals and if you close up into the not return line, president-s will be useless. Also president-S have blind scanning situation in helicopters. For example in low flight and nose down flight in frontal aspect.

Read what Fri13 posted!

Do you mean that the Ka-50 installation does not include the RWR component?

No!

Can I find out where you got all this from? Did you come up with this yourself?

As you can't be a civil, you can go and find it all by yourself. I give you just the hint for the source. KAMOV and Russian Ministry of Defense.

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As you can't be a civil, you can go and find it all by yourself. I give you just the hint for the source. KAMOV and Russian Ministry of Defense.

I do not need the hints. I have a fairly large number of Russian-language sources about the history of the development of the Ka-50 project, including those written in direct cooperation with the helicopter developers themselves.

At the same time, from your answers it becomes clear to me that you do not have enough information about the history of the development of the Ka-50 project. The lack of reliable materials can of course be compensated by a rich imagination, but I do not think that users of these forums will ultimately be delighted with an alternative history.

Very much appreciate your input S.E.Bulba, clearly you are a wealth of knowledge. Cheers :thumbup:

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Very much appreciate your input S.E.Bulba, clearly you are a wealth of knowledge. Cheers :thumbup:

Thanks and all the best!

I not too high on helicopter knowledge base, but i did stay at holiday inn last night :smartass:. SO.... i was wondering:

If modern rotor blades are all composite wouldn't it be very easy to make the blades fairly stealthy - which would mitigate the doppler 'pulses' you guys have mentioned, as they would or could be just too faint to be picked up from the background noise until the aircraft is too close, and then it would have to be pointing steeply down, not a prob for AESA but the stealth feature would still be there right?

Maybe that is the reason behind the current in game heligate issue (i mean the doppler gate for them). pun intended.:megalol:

If modern rotor blades are all composite wouldn't it be very easy to make the blades fairly stealthy

Doesn't matter - you still need that hub that's spinning pretty fast etc. You don't get stealth just by changing the blade material, though you may decrease the detection range a bit.

- which would mitigate

Nope. They're not the only moving parts; again, you have the hub at minimum (which may itself contain corner reflectors), and the tail rotor assembly.

not a prob for AESA but the stealth feature would still be there right?

Nope, design it for stealth from the start or there's no stealth. The end :)

Maybe that is the reason behind the current in game heligate issue (i mean the doppler gate for them). pun intended.:megalol:

The reason is 'online game play', from a long time ago. Things like composite blades were mentioned, but they're a poor 'real' excuse.

I'd imagine making the blades stealthy is slightly more complicated than making them out of composites, but I find the idea of the hub being tracked in TWS/STT surprising,

There must be a doppler gate on the TWS/STT track otherwise it's going to track every bush and goat on the ground while looking down - any idea what it is ?

While the rotors are spinning pretty fast, and the hub looks like it's spinning fast, if you take a UH-60, the hub's actually only spinning at 258 rpm.

Eyeballing it, it looks to be about 1m in diameter - maybe up to 1.5m.

That means that while all the components are angular and 'shiny', and so might provide quite a good reflection, the maximum groundspeed of any component at the very periphery of the hub is only between 30 mph and 50 mph & everything inboard of that is moving slower - to zero at the actual hub (while in a hover obviously).

Surely the gate's higher than 30 mph in lookdown, or you'd have every jackass in his SUV showing up in TWS ???

So blades and tail-rotor - sure, I can see that.

Hub - I'm less convinced at the moment..

Hello.

 

 

I just want to say in simple short way that the new Ka-50 must have a RWR which is a real part of other Russian helicopters Mi-24 and the Ka-52 and so on. the Fact that the early Ka-50 didn't have RWR because it was a prototype tested in a RADAR absence threat environment!

 

 

Nowadays in real life a Ka-50 if it was continued it would have had RWR due to the new nature of it's modern operation domain.

 

 

ED even the oldest RWR like found in the MiG-21 and early Mi-24s will do. I want to see it in the new Ka-50. In fact for me a RWR is more important than a IRCCD.

 

 

To all the people who care about this please make sure that you show that. Thanks.

First the IGLAS... now the whiners want another fantasy feature..... to better compete in airquake servers.

Why not just go full force and add railguns and full on stealth RCS reduction while your at it. :doh:

I got curious and did some math for rotor speeds vs. doppler gates: It has some math but i made it really easy to follow, can't do that with forum txt app so I made a pdf:

To sum up: Huey rotor tips at cruise are moving at 480 knots and at about 2m out they are doing 133 knots and at 1.5m out they are doing 100 knots. With these results I would assume the rotation of the inner rotor connection and the hub to be invisible to an F-14 doppler radar (which i used for the experiment). But remember that these velocities are vectorially summed to the velocity of the helicopter as a whole, so the advancing blades will go higher and the retreating blades will seem slower (so viewed from the interceptor advancing blades should be easier to see, retreating harder, from the frame of reference of the searching radar of course)

here is the pdf, its actually easy to read and you can use the equations to run this experiment on any rotors and any doppler gates you wish: It's also fun to see if the blades can come close to transonic!

Rotor angular speed experiment for doppler gate 3.pdf

For some quick mental math for pilots!

V=w*r

if you take a tenth of you rpm's you get radians per second, multiply that by your rotor radius in meters and you get angular velocity in meters/second. take that and multiply by 2 and you get approximately your blade tip speed in knots around the hub, then for an advancing blade add you air speed ! and subtract for the receding blades!

Good approximate figure.

0.2 * r * RPM ( = 0.1 * D * RPM)

That's nice - I like it.

Let me guess - starting from angular velocity - you're an engineer :) ?

I wondered how approximate the approximation was, so did it the math-phobe, social science major's way :-/

Pi * D * RPM * 60 * .001 to get the speed at that diameter in km/h, which simplifies to

D * RPM * 0.1885 = speed in km/h

or

D * RPM * 0.1018 for knots

which makes your angular approximation pretty close ! (.1 is pretty close to .1018 )