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How is f-14 maneuverability?


NORTHMAN

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  • 4 weeks later...

You realize that some of the f14 gun kills were happened when the pilot induced a departure because he knew how where the nose was going to be in relation to the bandit. And then, getting control back. Aerobatics or just knowing how the plane behaved. You need to understand that this plane could cartwheel, snap roll, induce some yaw...etc. afcs is more forgiving than dfcs.

 

Roll sas is turned off in bfm.

 

There is pro-verse and ad verse yaw depending on alpha...think about for a moment.

 

 

All of this is happened during LOW Speed flight!

 

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You realize that some of the f14 gun kills were happened when the pilot induced a departure because he knew how where the nose was going to be in relation to the bandit. And then, getting control back. Aerobatics or just knowing how the plane behaved. You need to understand that this plane could cartwheel, snap roll, induce some yaw...etc. afcs is more forgiving than dfcs.

 

Roll sas is turned off in bfm.

 

There is pro-verse and ad verse yaw depending on alpha...think about for a moment.

 

 

All of this is happened during LOW Speed flight!

 

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Only Tom Cruise knows how to do that :lol:

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F-15 fight with F-14A.

[ATTACH]162597[/ATTACH]

-Nick

 

 

 

Makes sense. Except for that defensive break. I mean, the 14 does have more lift for every degree of alpha at the same mach, up to about the stalling edge. If so, and they are behind you, breaking hard might not be such a good idea? I mean, they can out point you and get where you wanna be before you, then unload and get some energy back, while your exhaust goes right to your face.... Unless he is more at the 3-9 line, but does that classify as a defensive setup? :huh:

 

I can't believe the day came when i quoted myself. It would appear i suffer from reading disorder and you guys just let me go along :doh:

 

That part i was referring to, was actually from an F-15 offensive point, at as such it makes PERFECT sense. I needlessly spent several hours doing simulations to only confirm what was already stated........ don't ask what made necro this though, i'm already overwhelmed with shame :pilotfly::doh:

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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I can't believe the day came when i quoted myself. It would appear i suffer from reading disorder and you guys just let me go along :doh:

 

That part i was referring to, was actually from an F-15 offensive point, at as such it makes PERFECT sense. I needlessly spent several hours doing simulations to only confirm what was already stated........ don't ask what made necro this though, i'm already overwhelmed with shame :pilotfly::doh:

 

Well that does it, that's the last time I trust what you say!:smilewink: :D

 

Nah I guess we all misread it, so shame falls upon all of us. However that said the defensive part is then quite risky as basically it just seems to allow the F-14 lots of shot opportunities before its energy depletes. Seems like the proper advice for a neutral setup though.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Well that does it, that's the last time I trust what you say!:smilewink: :D

 

Nah I guess we all misread it, so shame falls upon all of us. However that said the defensive part is then quite risky as basically it just seems to allow the F-14 lots of shot opportunities before its energy depletes. Seems like the proper advice for a neutral setup though.

 

Neutral and offensive yeah, especially offensive. You get the A enough bellow 250-300 and it's gonna struggle to recover. :thumbup:

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Neutral and offensive yeah, especially offensive. You get the A enough bellow 250-300 and it's gonna struggle to recover. :thumbup:

 

Indeed, but if they're both at M 0.8 and the F-14A starts on the F-15's tail, well then that's gonna mean a heck of a lot of shot opportunities for the cat until the F-15's extra thrust allows it to pull ahead and initiate a long lag pursuit.

 

In contrast the F-14A can get out of danger faster with a hard break, even if it just means the F-15 immediately goes vertical to come in for another pass. But atleast the cat can throw the eagle off target right away, where'as the eagle is in much more danger initially if the positions are reversed.

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Thanks for the factual discussion and opinions of Tomcat versus Eagle ACM. I just want to point out this is the first time I've seen t stay on topic and provide useful facts. Indeed the Eagle will be more forgiving f mistakes are made, and indeed the F-14A can point the nose for quite a while until the energy bleeds off. The Eagle needs to be waiting for this and drop in for the easy kill. This requires good ACM and not panicking but baiting the F-14 while maintaining energy and keeping just out of the pipper to encourage the F-14 to keep pulling and bleeding energy. Any F-15 that tries to pull with the F-14 at 360kts while find themselves at a disadvantage, and hope the F100s give them the space to get above 400kts and stay there.

VF-2 Bounty Hunters

 

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Only Tom Cruise knows how to do that
Actually it is cited in numerous books like "Bye! Bye! ", Hoser shoot to kill book... Even the F14 Association forum. They used natural departures and aerobatics against their foes. Assymmetric thrust does wonders in the slow fight.

 

 

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  • 1 year later...
If pilot skill is equal in a perfect world, then:

F-16N = clean FA-18C @50% fuel

F-16N > F-14B

Clean FA-18C @ 50% fuel > F-14B

 

what about a clean F-14B @ 50%? :huh:

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what about a clean F-14B @ 50%?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/3383/what-it-was-like-flying-and-fighting-the-f-16n-viper-topguns-legendary-hotrod%3fsource=dam

 

That pilot said the f16n enjoyed a significant maneuvering advantage over the tomcat.

 

He also says a slick hornet with no external stores taking on an f16 was a great fight.

 

We can deduce whatever we want about fuel state from those statements

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what about a clean F-14B @ 50%? :huh:

 

There are no confirmed maneuvering diagrams of a clean F-14 (that i have seen). I've seen some, but the source and the reliability of the data can not be traced (by me).

 

The best you could do is try to eliminate the stores weight and drag influence from the E-M chart, but that still leaves you the changes in the alpha induced drag as a result of the reduced weight. This thing however, isn't linear, so you need much more work to make the estimate.

 

In a simplified simulation though, i don't think the result should be much changed from what was already presented in this thread. :thumbup:

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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what about a clean F-14B @ 50%?

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3383/what-it-was-like-flying-and-fighting-the-f-16n-viper-topguns-legendary-hotrod

 

Nickell said the F-16N enjoyed a significant maneuvering advantage over the Tomcat.

 

He also says a slick Hornet with no external stores taking on an F-16 was a great fight.

 

We can deduce whatever we want about fuel state from Nickell's statements. I think it's likely the F-16 started with full internal fuel because Nickell mentions that in the article. I don't know what SOP's are for the Hornet and Tomcat as far as the fuel the jets start with for BFM training.

 

One could also argue that it's highly likely Nickell fought F-14B's because he says the first F-16N was delivered in 1987 which is the year the F-14B entered service. So if he was flying F-16N's from 1987 onward he probably BFM'ed some F-14B's in his time.


Edited by Heavy-D69420
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Nickell said the F-16N enjoyed a significant maneuvering advantage over the Tomcat.

 

That might as well be so, but doesn't really tell me much. So, what should i do if i face off with a Viper? Roll over and die?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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That might as well be so, but doesn't really tell me much. So, what should i do if i face off with a Viper? Roll over and die?

 

Look at it like any other BFM situation. Pull too hard, you die. Not time something right, you die. Not fly your best, you die. Make a bad decision in haste, you die.

 

I'm just trying to keep the F-14 humpers in a realistic state of mind.

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Look at it like any other BFM situation. Pull too hard, you die. Not time something right, you die. Not fly your best, you die. Make a bad decision in haste, you die.

 

I'm just trying to keep the F-14 humpers in a realistic state of mind.

 

Sure, what ever you say :megalol:

 

You've got 40+ pages of reading to do buddy, and the article you linked has been covered here as well. A crack adversary pilot in a totally clean F-16 facing off against student pilots in F-14's with bags limited to 6-6.5 G's is hardly representative of a typical combat situation ;)

 

In short, you're in for a rude awakening once you realize how badly the F-14 kicks the butt of the F/A-18C & F-15C in a turn fight, esp. if the cat is clean :D

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Look at it like any other BFM situation. Pull too hard, you die. Not time something right, you die. Not fly your best, you die. Make a bad decision in haste, you die.

 

I'm just trying to keep the F-14 humpers in a realistic state of mind.

 

No need to do that. The Tomcat can take on anything in DCS from a BFM standpoint. It is not the easiest aircraft to fly in BFM, but it’s capabilities keep it competitive for those who get to know her.

 

Here is a quick benchmark for a clean F-14B and it was the standard air show demo for minimum radius turns at roughly 2000’ MSL and less than 50000 lbs gross weight: plug in burner at 280 kias and accelerate to 320 kias, build up the G and the F-14B can sustain 7 G at a steady 320 kias. The Heatblur module is very carefully benchmarked against the real EM charts and does this maneuver perfectly.

 

For reference, the Hornet clean with 4000 lbs of gas can only sustain about 5.8 G at the same altitude and speed. So if you are going to fight the Tomcat with a Hornet, make sure you stay above 350 kias.

 

-Nick

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No need to do that. The Tomcat can take on anything in DCS from a BFM standpoint. It is not the easiest aircraft to fly in BFM, but it’s capabilities keep it competitive for those who get to know her.

 

Here is a quick benchmark for a clean F-14B and it was the standard air show demo for minimum radius turns at roughly 2000’ MSL and less than 50000 lbs gross weight: plug in burner at 280 kias and accelerate to 320 kias, build up the G and the F-14B can sustain 7 G at a steady 320 kias. The Heatblur module is very carefully benchmarked against the real EM charts and does this maneuver perfectly.

 

For reference, the Hornet clean with 4000 lbs of gas can only sustain about 5.8 G at the same altitude and speed. So if you are going to fight the Tomcat with a Hornet, make sure you stay above 350 kias.

 

-Nick

 

finally, someone to put these guys in their place. :thumbup:

Strike

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finally, someone to put these guys in their place. :thumbup:
Unfortunately, I doubt it will settle anything. :/

 

 

 

If and/or when the DCS F-14 routinely thrashes Eagles, Vipers, Fulcrums etc, then it still won't matter. People will simply claim that:

 

 

- Heatblur doesn't know what they're doing and screwed the FM

 

 

OR...

 

 

- Heatblur was participating in a Tomcat circle jerk and made it OP on purpose.

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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Unfortunately, I doubt it will settle anything. :/

 

 

 

If and/or when the DCS F-14 routinely thrashes Eagles, Vipers, Fulcrums etc, then it still won't matter. People will simply claim that:

 

 

- Heatblur doesn't know what they're doing and screwed the FM

 

 

OR...

 

 

- Heatblur was participating in a Tomcat circle jerk and made it OP on purpose.

 

I doubt the Cat will make so much of a difference in levels of play between the 4th gen jets. Right now, the F15, Su27, M2k, and F/A18 can all win a fight amongst themselves on any given day, depending on who flies better.

 

I don't think the Cat will be thrashing everything in sight, but I do think that it holding its own will earmark it for the above comments from the deniers who continue to believe Yahoo answers claims of "only an interceptor," and similar nonsense.

 

At the end of the day, they can complain all they want. ED won't bend to some small coterie that makes claims based on feelings rather than facts.

 

All these Hornet Bros would probably start going nuts when they saw my F5 outturning a Flanker in a sustained rate turn to get guns on him (because they'd ignore that I'm doing 600 kts to make it happen).


Edited by Dino Might
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