SAM Questions

I have a few questions about some of the long range SAMs in DCS.

1-How come the Patriot won't engage targets until they're a fair ways into the darker blue engagement range circle?

2-How come the S-300PS won't engage targets until they're a bit inside the detection range of the Clam Shell (SR 5N66M, I think), which is far inside the darker red engagement circle for the launchers?

3-Would the S-300PS work with just the SR 64H6E? How about with just the SR 5N66M?

4-Lastly, why won't the Russian Pyotr Velikiy engage targets until they're over halfway between the ship and the engagement circle borders?

I can't answer you questions specifically, but something in general: Engagement ranges vary based on target altitude, which means that the static range circles shown in DCS are for a specific (ideal?) target altitude, but the actual range is different if the target is flying below or above that altitude.

I get that, it's just like with air to air combat, but why such a huge difference between the ideal and common engagement range? I've NEVER seen the SA-10 engage anything that's farther away than the Clam Shell's detection range.

I get that, it's just like with air to air combat, but why such a huge difference between the ideal and common engagement range? I've NEVER seen the SA-10 engage anything that's farther away than the Clam Shell's detection range.

Well, how should a SAM attack something it doesn't see? If the radar range is less than the launcher/missile range, then the radar range is the attack range.

True, but the SR 64H6E can detect targets farther away than the launchers can fire, it's just the Clam shell that can't.

Okay, a discovery:

The SA-10 can function perfectly well without more than 1 search radar, which means that you could have either the SR 5N66M or the SR 64H6E, but there is no need to have (though no problem in having) both.

I had originally thought that the reason the SA-10 wouldn't fire until the target was in the Clam Shell's detection range, even though the other SR and the TR could detect it, was because both SRs needed to detect the target for it to work. Apparently, however, it was just the low range (for a long range missile) of the 5V55.

Use the template by default in ME. Should work.

Both SR work together and they have not the same task depending altitud. Google it

Hmm...Makes sense that the search radars would have different jobs. I know all about the template for the S-300, I use it quite commonly.

And, what about the Patriot and the Pyotr Velikiy? The 48N6 of the Russian ship, at least, should be able to shoot much farther than I've ever seen it.

Hmm...Makes sense that the search radars would have different jobs. I know all about the template for the S-300, I use it quite commonly.

 

And, what about the Patriot and the Pyotr Velikiy? The 48N0M6 of the Russian ship, at least, should be able to shoot much farther than I've ever seen it.

Ships are a different subject, I heard somewhere they have a capped 30 mile range for some reason, don't quote me on it since it could be outdated info.

Both long range SAMs in DCS are limited to shoot from about 50km. Only when you go higher (let’s say more than 6000-7000m) then they shoot from more than 50km also depending the speed.

Would you mind upload some tracks of your specific flight combat?

Alright, here're some, one of the S-300PS, and one of the Patriot. Notice, at least with the S-300PS, the inaccuracy of the missiles when it comes to dealing with enemy fighters, but the extreme accuracy with which they destroy enemy anti-radar missiles.

By the way, I've taken to making missions with just computer-controlled units and watching the outcome, and these are both like that.

S-300PS Testing Mission.trk

Patriot Testing Mission.trk

As you can see in your track the SAM start launch at ~47km. In Your track the F-16 altitud is about 2000m and very low speed for the task. that's should be change it.

I modified your track with more speed for the SEAD fighters and 4000m altitud. those changes made the SAM start launch from ~57km, 10km more. So you can test more altitud you will get more range reaction for the SAM.

also I made a second track for you to show the SAM never must be alone in battlefield, so you can see the difference. I made some SAMs levels unfortunately the S-300 get very soon out of ammo.

S-300PS Testing Mission mod1.trk

S-300PS Testing Mission mod2.trk

Are search and track radars actually simulated differently in DCS? Or can a track radar search for targets just fine and missiles be guided by search radars as well?

SAM missiles are SARH. as far as i know, search radars can't lock you and thus they can't guide missiles at all.

SA-3/6/10 can't shoot without target engagement radars that i've ever seen.

SAM missiles are SARH. as far as i know, search radars can't lock you and thus they can't guide missiles at all.

 

 

SA-3/6/10 can't shoot without target engagement radars that i've ever seen.

True, now that you say that, I can't remember ever been locked up by a search radar. :thumbup:

True, now that you say that, I can't remember ever been locked up by a search radar. :thumbup:

The tracking radars in DCS usually know when you're flying into their engagement envelope, but I guess when they're accompanied with a Search radar, they just lock you when they're getting ready to fire, leaving them undiscovered for longer? Not sure if they use these tactics, IRL they'd stay hidden until you're closing into the no-escape zone.

Pepin1234, I’ll check out those tracks when I can, right now I’m not home. About what you said about altitude and speed, I told those F-16s to go to 7,000 meters MSL and 700 KM/H by waypoint 1, but they didn’t obey. Should I have just had them start at the higher altitude and speed?

As for what you said about the SA-10 being alone, I know, but this mission was just for testing the SA-10. Otherwise, I’d have a few Tors there as well.

By the way, Cik, I think I've occasionally seen the SA-10 fire after the tracking radar has been destroyed, though maybe I'm mistaken. Either way, it wouldn't make sense for it to be able to.

Okay, I've had time to watch the tracks, and I've got a fair amount to say:

1-pepin1234, do you think you could post the straight missions, so I could look at them and possibly modify them?

2-About the second one...Don't you think you should have had at least a few escort fighters for the F-16s?

3-In my Patriot mission, why did two of the Su-24Ms go away, and how can I prevent this? I can post the actual missions if need be.

4-Lastly, and this is just an unimportant statement, have any of you guessed what I did for the S-300PS and Patriot missions? I simply saved a template of the SA-10 and Patriot systems from Fortress Mozdok, after slightly modifying some of the units' headings.

Pepin1234, Should I have just had them start at the higher altitude and speed?

Just set the first next WPT not too far with the right speed (more than 850k/h)

I need to look your Patriot. Yesterday not time for this one.

Okay, here're the missions, as well as a couple of others. Please note that with the first two, there may be a few slight differences, as they are not the originals. I'd deleted the originals for some reason. This is my best replication.

Notice 2 things about the Patriot range mission:

1-The Patriots are excellent at engaging ARMs.

2-The Su-24s split up. Are they, like, loners or something?

3-Again, why the abysmal fire-hit ratio, including with the S-300?

S-300PS Testing Mission.miz

Patriot Testing Mission.miz

SA-10 Range Test.miz

Patriot Range Test.miz

Here're some ship SAM range testing missions; I used the American FFG-7CL Oliver Hazzard Perry and the CG-60 Normandy (Ticonderoga, I think), as well as the Russian CG 1164 Moskva (Moscow, I think), and the CGN 1144.2 Pyotr Velikiy.

I noticed that the FFG-7CL and the CG-60 fired their SM-2 missiles at ~60km, the Moskva fired its 5V55 missiles at ~50km, and the Pyotr fired its 48N6 missiles at ~70-80km, which is the farthest I've ever seen a SAM go.

Russia Ship SAM Range Test.miz

USA Ship SAM Range Test.miz

FlankerMan,

FWIW, the longest range launch I've seen so far with the SA-10 is about 76km. Aircraft in question was high (10K m) and fairly fast. Target altitude has a lot to do with the range.

Okay. I'm about to test the 48N6 missile again, I saw it launch from ~77km. By the way, did your missiles hit?

Okay. I'm about to test the 48H6E2 missile again, I saw it launch from ~77km. By the way, did your missiles hit?

Yes. They hit.

Okay, nice! I did some more testing with the SAMs on ships, I can post the missions if anyone wants them. I have a couple of questions, though.

1-Why does the LHA-1 Tarawa have such a large static ideal engagement range circle, even though its only missiles are the RIM-7 (Sea Sparrow)?

2-Why do certain missiles (AGM-84A Harpoon; AGM-119A Penguin; Kh-31A "Krypton"; 48N6/SA-N-6 "Grumble") sound like they're still burning, even after the fire (visible exhaust) has disappeared?

By the way, so far with the Oliver H Perry and Ticonderoga, I've seen the SM-2 launch from ~65km from the target, though the farthest away from the target of those that hit that I've seen were launched from just ~60km.