IFF and RWR

We have an IFF panel (right side, towards the back of the cockpit, item 13 on p26 of the manual), but I can't work out how to turn it on. Can someone please fill me in? It would be really helpful to be able to interrogate a target before deciding whether to launch a missile at it :P

Also, the RWR will give radar warnings for friendlies as well as hostiles, correct?

We have an IFF panel (right side, towards the back of the cockpit, item 13 on p26 of the manual), but I can't work out how to turn it on. Can someone please fill me in? It would be really helpful to be able to interrogate a target before deciding whether to launch a missile at it :P

 

Also, the RWR will give radar warnings for friendlies as well as hostiles, correct?

It doesn't work afaik

Since the Viggen only has a ground mapping radar (which also can be used for air targets in a very limited way), I highly doubt that it is equipped with an IFF interrogator (even many fighter aircraft do not have one). It surely has an IFF transponder, which means that it can tell other interrogators that it is friendly. Since IFF in DCS is highly abstracted, there isn't really much to simulate here.

I am not an expert, but I don't think you can interogate targets with the iff. the viggen radar is not make for locking up air targets, so I don't see how it would work. The iff is only for other aircraft to be able to identify the viggen.

And the rwr shows all emissions like all rwr do. There is no way to tell the "side" if a radar emissions

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Can someone confirm this? I literally was 5 minutes away from purchasing the Viggen, but now have reservations.

Honestly, I don’t think this should stop you getting this module, it certainly hasn’t made me regret buying it. There is just one included mission where you’re tasked with taking out a ship that’s hunting a friendly submarine, so in that mission it would be ideal to ID the target before firing, but it hasn’t been an issue elsewhere, and I don’t expect it will be.

Since the Viggen only has a ground mapping radar (which also can be used for air targets in a very limited way), I highly doubt that it is equipped with an IFF interrogator (even many fighter aircraft do not have one). It surely has an IFF transponder, which means that it can tell other interrogators that it is friendly. Since IFF in DCS is highly abstracted, there isn't really much to simulate here.

You’re dead right, I didn’t even think about the fact that I’m interpreting the radar returns myself. No way it could be used, I see that now.

EDIT 01: Blindingly obvious now that I have next to no experience with a2a radar, but I thought this panel was an interrogator (as opposed to just a transponder) because it has an “identify” button with indicator lights for pass and fail.

Just to add here: IFF doesn't work for some planes too. For example, the A-10A and C do have the IFF equipment in, but it is not functioning in DCS. Same goes for the F-5, Bf-109 and others too afaik.

IFF in dcs is simplifed to checking if you are blue or red.

It does not actually take into account your IFF transponders etc.

So in that way most IFF transponders dont work as they play no part in the game (so doest not matter if you have it off or if you have the wrong codes etc you will still show as friendly to friendly jets and enemy to enemy jets)

Just to add here: IFF doesn't work for some planes too. For example, the A-10A and C do have the IFF equipment in, but it is not functioning in DCS. Same goes for the F-5, Bf-109 and others too afaik.

Good to know, I didn't realize. So in an airframe without functioning IFF kit, I guess you can only identify air contacts visually or by inference based on position?

My entire experience of radar A2A is a few reps of the Su-27T training, and recently the radar training for the MiG-21 - the reason I didn't consider the need for a radar lock was because the MiG - in the training at least - seems to interrogate all contacts on the screen at once.

IFF in dcs is simplifed to checking if you are blue or red.

 

It does not actually take into account your IFF transponders etc.

So in that way most IFF transponders dont work as they play no part in the game (so doest not matter if you have it off or if you have the wrong codes etc you will still show as friendly to friendly jets and enemy to enemy jets)

Ah gotcha, so having functioning IFF equipment doesn't convey an advantage, Probably just as well, I'd hate to see what would happen if people were shooting their teammates down in multiplayer :megalol:

Good to know, I didn't realize. So in an airframe without functioning IFF kit, I guess you can only identify air contacts visually or by inference based on position?

 

My entire experience of radar A2A is a few reps of the Su-27T training, and recently the radar training for the MiG-21 - the reason I didn't consider the need for a radar lock was because the MiG - in the training at least - seems to interrogate all contacts on the screen at once.

If the plane is equipped with IFF interrogator, it will identify friend or foe regardless if the target has any kind of IFF system.

But I wouldn't worry much about IFF when it comes to Viggen, its radar is not designed for a2a.

I'd hate to see what would happen if people were shooting their teammates down in multiplayer :megalol:

That, of course, does not happen. Never. :music_whistling:

:D

If the plane is equipped with IFF interrogator, it will identify friend or foe regardless if the target has any kind of IFF system.

 

But I wouldn't worry much about IFF when it comes to Viggen, its radar is not designed for a2a.

Cool, so I can get used to the concept of IFF interrogation at my own pace. I should have it down by the time we see DCS: F22A :pilotfly:

As others have already said: The IFF system in DCS is very simpliefied and relies on game mechanics rather than simulating real equipment. This is bothering me for quite a while now, as this could be done much better. I made some suggestions on how to handle IFF in DCS and tried to start a discussion about this two years ago (even before the Viggen has been released): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161240

Sadly nothing has been changed yet :(

The problem is that getting everyone to use the same IFF code is troublesome, the simple mechanics of it would open up the game world to griefing, and it's really just something that doesn't really need to be fully simulated.

The problem is that getting everyone to use the same IFF code is troublesome, the simple mechanics of it would open up the game world to griefing, and it's really just something that doesn't really need to be fully simulated.

Why is this troublesome? Just put it in the briefing together with all the other server information like frequencies and stuff. And if it's the default code, that is dialed in on startup it's even less a worry.

Generally, I don't understand the thought of "its something that doesn't need to be fully simulated". I thought this is what DCS is all about?!

When we developed the Viggen we actually developed a simple transponder based IFF challenge/reply system. The issue is that it's.. well, useless in the context of DCS because the only aircraft equipped with this level of detail would be the Viggen.

I believe we deactivated the code and the IFF panel buttons work but do not do anything.

When we developed the Viggen we actually developed a simple transponder based IFF challenge/reply system. The issue is that it's.. well, useless in the context of DCS because the only aircraft equipped with this level of detail would be the Viggen.

 

I believe we deactivated the code and the IFF panel buttons work but do not do anything.

Maybe you can add it as an option? :D

It would be hilarious to be shot down by my own side because I forgot to turn it on... :D

When we developed the Viggen we actually developed a simple transponder based IFF challenge/reply system. The issue is that it's.. well, useless in the context of DCS because the only aircraft equipped with this level of detail would be the Viggen.

 

I believe we deactivated the code and the IFF panel buttons work but do not do anything.

Thanks for explaining Cobra. It seems like several underlying DCS World problems have prevented you introducing features or needing to use complex workarounds, off the top of my head there is this IFF. the BK 90 dispensers and the RB 04E guidance... I'm sure that list is actually longer.

As others have already said: The IFF system in DCS is very simpliefied and relies on game mechanics rather than simulating real equipment. This is bothering me for quite a while now, as this could be done much better. I made some suggestions on how to handle IFF in DCS and tried to start a discussion about this two years ago (even before the Viggen has been released): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161240

 

Sadly nothing has been changed yet :(

I read the thread you linked to, I think you made a great suggestion, and I think it's sad that several people seemed to have decided that since they couldn't have a more detailed IFF simulation, it was better to have none at all. People have mentioned that at the moment coalitions are shown automatically, how is that info communicated to the player? Is it through labels, HUD symbology etc...

When we developed the Viggen we actually developed a simple transponder based IFF challenge/reply system. The issue is that it's.. well, useless in the context of DCS because the only aircraft equipped with this level of detail would be the Viggen.

 

I believe we deactivated the code and the IFF panel buttons work but do not do anything.

Thanks! That's exactly what I would like to see in the entirety of DCS. It's great that you actually put some effort on an IFF implementation, although it's useless for the time beeing. I hope this will change in the future, but that's on ED.

Why is this troublesome? Just put it in the briefing together with all the other server information like frequencies and stuff. And if it's the default code, that is dialed in on startup it's even less a worry.

 

Generally, I don't understand the thought of "its something that doesn't need to be fully simulated". I thought this is what DCS is all about?!

I'm going to assume that ED wouldn't integrate any planned IFF into the FC3 modules, so there's one problem; how to include the FC3 aircraft. Second, how would it be handled operating IFF across multiple third party designers. Everyone would have to adjust to different ways of implementation. That could be solved by a direct edict from ED saying that IFF is to be handled a specific way, so at least there's that. My point about it not needing to be simulated fully is that the simple complexity of the entire thing is probably beyond the returns on what it will provide.

Now, granted, one of my first steps in powering on the Viggen is reaching over and switching IFF on, the modes on, and hitting ident twice just to be sure. It's just a thing I do out of habit.

I mean, honestly it's their fault if a user doesn't read a mission briefing online and put in the correct code. If you have the attention span to learn a module enough to where you can relatively use it online, you should have the attention span to at least skim the important parts of a briefing. I wish this was modelled, simply because this is one of the things DCS is about.

 

EDIT - This is the kind of stuff that makes my head hurt. There's all this talk about realism in DCS, but as seen you get online to fight because there's not that much single player content, it goes right out the door.

My problem isn't the attention span issue (even though that would be a problem, hopefully easily resolved, but would lead to a lot of unfair bans for people who did follow procedure, killing those that did not).

To answer both of you, my concern is that a handful of players would use the ability to switch sides (or look at a shared briefing, even better) to grab the opposing IFF code, and give themselves a few seconds advantage in every fight as their opponent considers whether the person facing them is buddy spiking them, or if it's a true case of spoofing IFF.

My belief is that, given the difficulties and pitfalls, ED decided to force game-centric simulation of IFF, and not module-centric, full implementation. I can agree, unless someone comes up with answers to all the difficulties.

Finally, is your edit directed at me? I'm not on here to fight about this, I'm on here pointing out the issues surrounding doing IFF simulation in this game. If that makes your head hurt, take some headache medicine. Don't come on here complaining when someone has a difference of opinion. I'm not faulting anyone for wanting IFF simulation, I just want to point out that we need to get around some issues before it would be okay to implement.

I gave a simple IFF idea some time ago, but I guess this is just how ED wants it to be

My belief is that, given the difficulties and pitfalls, ED decided to force game-centric simulation of IFF, and not module-centric, full implementation.

My proposal in the linked thread was not module-specific too, apart from setting the switches. I want a common IFF interface within the DCS engine that can be used by 3rd parties to plug in the IFF functionality of their aircraft modules. This interface should just transmit the status of the transponder (just on/off would be enough, different transponder modes are not really necessary), and IFF code, which both can be set in the cockpit already in most modules. They just have no function yet.

About the other problems you mentioned:

I'm going to assume that ED wouldn't integrate any planned IFF into the FC3 modules, so there's one problem; how to include the FC3 aircraft.

Just don't give them the functionality. The FC3 modules are supposed to be simple, so just give them a positive IFF status by default, which can not be changed.

Second, how would it be handled operating IFF across multiple third party designers. Everyone would have to adjust to different ways of implementation. That could be solved by a direct edict from ED saying that IFF is to be handled a specific way, so at least there's that. My point about it not needing to be simulated fully is that the simple complexity of the entire thing is probably beyond the returns on what it will provide.

The implementation is actually very easy and can be solved by a common interface as explained above.

My problem isn't the attention span issue (even though that would be a problem, hopefully easily resolved, but would lead to a lot of unfair bans for people who did follow procedure, killing those that did not).

 

To answer both of you, my concern is that a handful of players would use the ability to switch sides (or look at a shared briefing, even better) to grab the opposing IFF code, and give themselves a few seconds advantage in every fight as their opponent considers whether the person facing them is buddy spiking them, or if it's a true case of spoofing IFF.

Misuse of IFF codes by enemy players is indeed a problem, which I have no proper solution for. But ED could start without IFF codes, by just enabling basic transponder functionality, so that players can only return a positive IFF signal if their transponder is set to on.

And the rwr shows all emissions like all rwr do. There is no way to tell the "side" if a radar emissions

Something just came to mind, since we can't distinguish between known/friendly radars and others, how do we avoid getting radar warning constantly when flying with a wing/man beside/behind? Radar is used for searching by the wing/man as well as lead, correct?

Something just came to mind, since we can't distinguish between known/friendly radars and others, how do we avoid getting radar warning constantly when flying with a wing/man beside/behind?

what? you'll get emission indications but you only get warnings if the radar emitter switches to guidance waveform aka you have a missile inbound

if you haven't played any multiplayer yet you should just go online and do some flying, it will answer these basic questions