F-15E?

...And the AIM-120 can just as easily be added by the scenario designer. I have seen the AIM-120 employed against an Mig-15, without provocation, on free flight server, where the server operator expressly forbade the use of weapons in writing. Express written bans on the employment of the AIM-120 does not prevent the use of the AIM-120. Show me the populated DCS multiplayer servers where the AIM-120 is consistently left out of missions. If the AIM-120 is available for the F-15E in a mission, you are going to guarantee me that F-15E players are going to stick to the AIM-7, so the mirage sim pilots and F-14 sim pilots can have a word in edgewise? They will part with an available advantage sanctioned in game, just to be nice guys and gals? if I don't carry my 520D, so players like Hadwell can have a better chance of getting in close and making a kill, the other players on my team are going to likely do the same, follow my lead, or are they going to tell me that they paid for their Mirage 2000c add-on and will do as they please, within what is permitted in the mission, including use the 530D on a parakeet, if they can do so? I can count on uniform sportsman like behavior, in an environment where that behavior is not required? As the saying goes, "Opportunity makes the thief and the thief without opportunity is resigned to a life of an honest person. " I like my mission planners and multiplayer players resigned to a life of SARH only DCS level ASM/ PFM and ASM/EFM add-ons. :smilewink:

Well, that is the mission designers fault.

Every free flight server I have been on, I cannot mount anything on the hardpoints except smoke pods.

...And the AIM-120 can just as easily be added by the scenario designer. I have seen the AIM-120 employed against an Mig-15, without provocation, on free flight server, where the server operator expressly forbade the use of weapons in writing. Express written bans on the employment of the AIM-120 does not prevent the use of the AIM-120. Show me the populated DCS multiplayer servers where the AIM-120 is consistently left out of missions. If the AIM-120 is available for the F-15E in a mission, you are going to guarantee me that F-15E players are going to stick to the AIM-7, so the mirage sim pilots and F-14 sim pilots can have a word in edgewise? They will part with an available advantage sanctioned in game, just to be nice guys and gals? if I don't carry my 520D, so players like Hadwell can have a better chance of getting in close and making a kill, the other players on my team are going to likely do the same, follow my lead, or are they going to tell me that they paid for their Mirage 2000c add-on and will do as they please, within what is permitted in the mission, including use the 530D on a parakeet, if they can do so? I can count on uniform sportsman like behavior, in an environment where that behavior is not required? As the saying goes, "Opportunity makes the thief and the thief without opportunity is resigned to a life of an honest person. " I like my mission planners and multiplayer players resigned to a life of SARH only DCS level ASM/ PFM and ASM/EFM add-ons. :smilewink:

I gaurentee you have control over the content of servers you create...And the choice of what server you decide to participate on...beyond that basically hobbling the game to suit your desires is the most childish thing I've seen in a long time. Back to the subject...

I don't own the L-39. Can someone who does tell me how the dual player functions seem to be implimented. Is it a work in progress or pretty stable.

(...)

I don't own the L-39. Can someone who does tell me how the dual player functions seem to be implimented. Is it a work in progress or pretty stable.

I haven't really tried much of the dual seat besides slamming the IFR blackout hood down on my squad-mates. :megalol:

I'd say its great for a WIP control model...

Darn it, this thread makes me REALLY want a Strike Eagle!

Thanks guys :P

The F-14 is not AMRAAM capable. The USN chose to fund the FLIR instead of the AIM-120 upgrade, so the only ARH missile the Tomcat has is the Phoenix. The Phoenix wasn't carried when knowingly going up against fighters because the palettes reduced the maneuverability of the F-14.

That's cool, but I was talking about the AIM-54. I'm not arguing how the F-14 employ the missile. Simply saying the AIM-54 makes the F-14 a non SARH only aircraft. That was my only point.

Everyone seems twisted up over what variant of F-16s used AMMRAMs...I'm not that worried about OCA/DCA because the Air Forces uses F-16s for SEAD and strike more than CAP.

 

I'm looking for ANY version of the with the Harm Targeting System (HTS) and associated goodies. Block 52 one would be nice but I just don't care as long as we can get the HTS.

 

I'm gonna toss this out there for everyone to noodle while I am at work. DCS is about fidelity, realism, simulating the real thing. it's not an "Arcade game" in the traditional sense of the word.

 

If you want an idea of what might be coming to DCS in the future...I'd look at what AI Aircraft have the nicest exterior models...Compare the level of detail of the F-15 / F-16 / F-18 with some of the planes NOT being talked about on wish lists.

 

Some are pretty detailed for just an AI aircraft. Just my 2 cents.

 

Sierra

AFAIK, the only versions of the F-16 that use the AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting Systems (HTS) initially where USAF F-16C block 50/52 (AKA F-16CJ now converted to F-16CM). Now, after the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) USAF F-16C block 40 to 52 can carry the HTS. Other AGM-88 capable F-16 (Block 20, 30, 32, 50, 52, 52+) only carry the missile and use other methods of employment.

Finally, I would like to ask, what do you guys like about the F-15E in particular if it where to be a module?

...And the AIM-120 can just as easily be added by the scenario designer.

The idea that you can just "add them in" to a "SARH-only" DCS level module is preposterous. It has to be supported by the base DCS module first (HUD, WCS, MFD store pages, etc.). I guess your research is still pending.

Eventually when Razbam gets to making the F-15E.I would love to see a campaign,similar to Janes F-15 simulator back in the day.In which EDs Strait of Hormuz map would make good use of a conflict with Iran.

The idea that you can just "add them in" to a "SARH-only" DCS level module is preposterous. It has to be supported by the base DCS module first (HUD, WCS, MFD store pages, etc.). I guess your research is still pending.

You misinterpreted what I wrote. :music_whistling: If the F-15E module was one where the plane had the capacity to carry the AIM-120 and the AIM-7, mission builders could just as easily add in the AIM-120 as add in the AIM-7. Savvy?

I gaurentee you have control over the content of servers you create...And the choice of what server you decide to participate on...beyond that basically hobbling the game to suit your desires is the most childish thing I've seen in a long time. Back to the subject...

 

I don't own the L-39. Can someone who does tell me how the dual player functions seem to be implimented. Is it a work in progress or pretty stable.

Was it childish to model a Razbam Mirage 2000 that does not have active radar homing missiles? I am not suggesting hobbling the game. I am suggesting modelling an F-15E with the actual weapons that it carried during the time it was serving during the First Gulf War. I would want a SARH only F-15E model, as I believe that this would enhance gameplay, since a SARH only F15E would better fit a multiplayer environment filled with SARH only Mirage fighters and SARH only F-14 fighters. F-15 sim pilots aren't going to be the only ones playing in multiplayer, so figuring out a way for the F-15 to fit within the big picture is a great good. Even the dev team making the F-15 would presumably make other add-ons and how the F-15 fits within the bigger add-on picture is important for players, and I would argue for all the dev teams.

A F-15E with SARH only is a better opponent for an F14A with SARH only. That has potential significant implications that ought to be considered. When you introduce one add-on that is perceived as the best of the best, the most dominant, it will tend to affect player behaviors and ride choices, the add-ons they will use or think they need to have in DCS and it all matters, dude. What is the counter for a AIM-120 carrying F15E? Another AIM-120 carrying F15E? With a SARH only F-15E, the F-14 has a much better relative match up. I think players would be more likely to choice the F-14 as a rival for the F-15E, if the F-15E isn't capable of shooting back with an AIM-120. There will be many add-ons over the years, many dev teams, and all of their efforts are contributing to a greater whole, DCS World. The F-15E is a part of that whole, not everything on a cracker. This is why, despite my affection for the Mirage 2000, I am glad that we have the version we are getting in DCS World and not the most advanced version of the Mirage 2000. This version is perfect.

This version will fit better in the overall DCS World big picture, at least that is how I see it. That is my opinion, agree or disagree. You disagree with me? Ok. I don;t need a binky, I can handle a World where persons disagree and I don't have to make personal attacks. i am just sticking to my perspective. You don't share my perspective? Oh, well. See, the sky didn't fall...

What does maturity have to do with wanting a highly competitive multiplayer environment where all the 4th Gen rides best complement one another and allow for optimal competition? In my opinion, nada. :music_whistling:

If you want to personally insult me, do so in person, cyber bullying on flight sim forums is super lame. So could you stay on planes and not me? My opinion is childish? This isn't about whether or not you think my opinion is childish, right? You want the AIM-120, as simple as that, right? There is nothing wrong with that. There is no politically correct version of the F-15E. I am not personally attacking you or anyone else for an interest in the AIM-120. I have an issue with the introduction of the AIM-120 on a F-15E add-on, I don;t have a problem with you or the other supporters of the missile, the dev teams, etc. This is a flight sim forum, not a place for your personal attacks and cheap shots. You don't like my ideas and perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but I am not your pin cushion. If you want to bully me, do so in person, pal. :smilewink: Thanks.

Well, I want 8 AMRAAMs like the Eagle. Seriously, like I said earlier: The F-15E went about 2 years without AMRAAM capability, so if its even being done, there's a good chance that it would have Slammers.

And really, better mission design > limiting everyone else from enjoying the jet.

For most of us in MP this isn't about fairness, its about working the jet, having fun, and completing the mission (not necessarily in that order, though :) ). I'm all for having a SARH-only mission at some point, I love that stuff, I just don't like it as the norm.

TL;DR: Give people more options --> add AIM-120s, and find/create better missions.

@mjmorrow :

I'm not even sure you read what I've written so far or not, and less sure why am I still writing to the thread but :

- There is no SARH only F-14. F-14A, from day one, had AIM-54 Phoenix, which is pretty much active radar guided. While it is not a favorite aircraft of mine, if we go by your logic, F-14 should then never be done in DCS, or it should be unrealistically castrated by not including it's main weapon. Either proposition is as bad in my book as those asking for AIM-120 on F-14.

- There is SARH only Mirage 2000, which is called Mirage 2000C. There is no SARH only F-16 or SARH only F-15E. They barely existed for a few years, and received AMRAAM more or less as soon as it entered service. So I'm fairly sure no development studio would choose to announce either one without AMRAAM capability, whics is about 1992.

Big picture ? Well here goes :

- Like there are Korea or WW II only servers, there will also be post 90s servers with more active radar and some SARH equipped 4th gen aircraft. F-15E will fit there. More active radar missile equipped fighters are coming in form of F-18, EF-2000 and F-14 to count the ones we know so far.

- There will be servers where AIM-120 is disabled, F-15E will fit there just as fine.

- There will be free for all servers like most popular ones are. F-15E will... you've guessed it. Those servers are crawling with F-15C, which is even if by a bit, more dangerous A-A opponent anyway.

Counter for 120 equipped F-15E ? Whatever has been counter for 120 equipped F-15C so far. And other active radar homing missile equipped modules in pipeline, and also tactics / skill when in a non ARH equipped aircraft. F-15E is not more dangerous than F-15C as an aerial threat.

Peace, out :)

 

Counter for 120 equipped F-15E ? Whatever has been counter for 120 equipped F-15C so far. And other active radar homing missile equipped modules in pipeline, and also tactics / skill when in a non ARH equipped aircraft. F-15E is not more dangerous than F-15C as an aerial threat.

 

Peace, out :)

And that's the "problem", shall we say: there is no counter to a better BVR SA/weapons platform, even if our AMRAAMs might not be great compared to RL the SARH-guy won't get a fair fight very often.

But an unfair fight is the whole idea, isn't it? :)

For Mr Morrow: While an AIM-7 only F-15E would be "fair" vs F-14 and M2000C, it's not going to be fun against the Su-27s, why? Because the ER outranges the Sparrow. The Sukhois and MiGs are the primary threats to Eagles (of all shapes, sizes, and colors) in-game and IRL. So you'll have a fight stacked in their favor as it comes to weapons, but you'll have more SA.

I'll get the popcorn for that! :D

You misinterpreted what I wrote. :music_whistling: If the F-15E module was one where the plane had the capacity to carry the AIM-120 and the AIM-7, mission builders could just as easily add in the AIM-120 as add in the AIM-7. Savvy?

Oh?

The F-15E did not always carry the AIM-120.

 

What I would want, a high fidelity ASM/ EFM F-15E with the minimum of guesswork put into F-15E systems modelling, and SARH only capabilities, does not require stripping a DCS F-15E of any weapon that it actually did carry.

 

Agree or disagree with my conclusions on introducing a SARH only F-15E, but let us not get into this silly business about (you)... :smilewink:

@mjmorrow :

 

I'm not even sure you read what I've written so far or not, and less sure why am I still writing to the thread but :

 

- There is no SARH only F-14. F-14A, from day one, had AIM-54 Phoenix, which is pretty much active radar guided. While it is not a favorite aircraft of mine, if we go by your logic, F-14 should then never be done in DCS, or it should be unrealistically castrated by not including it's main weapon. Either proposition is as bad in my book as those asking for AIM-120 on F-14.

- There is SARH only Mirage 2000, which is called Mirage 2000C. There is no SARH only F-16 or SARH only F-15E. They barely existed for a few years, and received AMRAAM more or less as soon as it entered service. So I'm fairly sure no development studio would choose to announce either one without AMRAAM capability, whics is about 1992.

 

Big picture ? Well here goes :

- Like there are Korea or WW II only servers, there will also be post 90s servers with more active radar and some SARH equipped 4th gen aircraft. F-15E will fit there. More active radar missile equipped fighters are coming in form of F-18, EF-2000 and F-14 to count the ones we know so far.

- There will be servers where AIM-120 is disabled, F-15E will fit there just as fine.

- There will be free for all servers like most popular ones are. F-15E will... you've guessed it. Those servers are crawling with F-15C, which is even if by a bit, more dangerous A-A opponent anyway.

 

Counter for 120 equipped F-15E ? Whatever has been counter for 120 equipped F-15C so far. And other active radar homing missile equipped modules in pipeline, and also tactics / skill when in a non ARH equipped aircraft. F-15E is not more dangerous than F-15C as an aerial threat.

 

Peace, out :)

I have considered what you have written so far, Winter. I respect your opinion. My conclusions are different. I didn't respond to what you wrote. It is not that I don't consider your perspective important, I do. You stated your position and point of view on the issue. I personally think that the community ought to weigh in your perspective and consider it.

I am not here to pick the positions and perspectives of other persons. I am not making a formal argument, where I address all sides and then attempt to dismantle the other perspectives, because I am not interested in an argument. You wrote what you believe, I value your opinion. I stated my own opinions. I wasn't ignoring your position, I was respecting the fact that those are your sincere beliefs on the matter. You disagree with my position and I didn't see anything to react to, because those are your sincere well reasoned beliefs and I respect you and your beliefs.

I didn't think that your simply disagreeing with my position required a debate between us. I didn't take your having an alternative point of view personally or think that it was a bad thing. Our differing views are out there, persons ought to consider all sides, come up with their own perspectives, come to their own conclusions.

:thumbup: MJ

Oh?

You edited my quote and misinterpreted my remarks. I neither explicitly wrote nor intended to suggest that scenario designers could easily put the AIM-120 on a SARH only F-15E. I was suggesting that if a scenario designer could easily remove the AIM-120 from a F-15E capable of employing that missile, than the scenario designer could just as easily add the AIM-120 to a F-15E capable of carrying the AIM-120.

For the record and to be clear, my position is simply that if a DCS F-15E is introduced into DCS, it is best if that F-15E is a SARH only variant, because a SARH only variant will most likely be the one with the highest fidelity ASM, will best complement and fit in with the current and future DCS 4TH Generation DCS modules, such as the Mirage 2000c & F-14, will best contribute to ensuring the consistency of optimal competitive multiplayer game play and will best contribute to an overall enjoyable multiplayer experience, for everyone.

I appreciate that you do not share my views and conclusions on the matter. While I value your opinion, I hold to my own conclusions on this matter.

There is no need for old F-15E, you can remove AIM-120 from loadout If you dont like it.

At the end of the day chaps, it's really the availability of technical systems and flight characteristics information that will decide the block number of any DCS:F-15E.

Since that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if an eventual mudhen was SAHR only. But suffice it to say, this is not a game-play decision and is 100% based on what is and what isn't classified information.

I don't think its just classified information, but what's unrestricted/available.

The F-15E -1 manual is on avialogs...but I haven't found a -34 for it though, so that might say something. Though these developers have more 'power' at getting stuff than the average flight sim-er like myself, I'm sure.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter, we'll get whatever we get, even if its an AIM-9P3-only F-15E. :lol:

mjmorrow

You a fellow Chuck fan? :yay:

mjmorrow

 

You a fellow Chuck fan? :yay:

Yep! Chuck is my favorite show. :) :thumbup: MJ

I haven't found a 15E -34 that doesn't include AIM-120's. On the other hand, it's not like there's much access to this stuff :)

In any case, I doubt devs are concerned with balance, nor should they be. They should be considered with accurately modeling the aircraft capabilities, IMHO. But then again, that's their business, not mine.

The F-15E -1 manual is on avialogs...but I haven't found a -34 for it though, so that might say something. Though these developers have more 'power' at getting stuff than the average flight sim-er like myself, I'm sure.

I have a stack of -34's for the Mudhen. All were superseded, so when I left Sheppard AFB, I was allowed to keep them.

And I bet they all mention 120's.

And I bet they all mention 120's.

Well GG you have the same -34's I do.... ;)

I wouldn't be concerned with balance as far as the F-15E goes. In the air to air role, it doesn't do anything our current FC3 F-15C doesn't. It has the same missiles after all and the AIM-120 combined with a lack of R-77 capable machines is the real complaint. My only concern with the F-15E is that of redundancy. The way I see it, the F-15E, F-16C and F/A-18C/E are all basically the same. They use the same weapons, all have glass cockpits and are all US aircraft. That puts them in direct competition with each other for customers. I don't expect I'll be buying more than 1 US 4th gen multirole fighter, and it will probably be whatever gets released first. My bet is it will be ED's F/A-18C. I have nothing against the F-15E and would be happy to see it added, but I wouldn't buy it if I already had the Hornet.

On the other hand, having an F/A-18C would have no impact on me buying something totally different, like the A-7, AV-8B, MiG-23 and so on. That's why I keep pushing all the devs towards making some eastern aircraft (not necessarily Russian). The more aircraft that do basically the same thing for the same nations, the wider a limited number of sales will be spread. In short, I'm concerned about market saturation with western 4th gen fighters while all other aircraft categories are basically ignored.

Was it childish to model a Razbam Mirage 2000 that does not have active radar homing missiles? I am not suggesting hobbling the game. I am suggesting modelling an F-15E with the actual weapons that it carried during the time it was serving during the First Gulf War.

Since I have zero interest in the Mirage...with or without radar homing missles...I have no comment on the subject. But let me get this straingt...You want the F-15E as it was during the First Gulf War...the period from 2 August 1990 – 17 January 1991...roughly 5 1/2 months? It seems to me there has been an awful lot of development on BOTH side since the First Gulf War that would be lost due to your timetable...how is that not hobbling the aircraft? The F-15E first flight was in 1986 and it gained operational use of the AMMRAM Late 91 /Early92ish...Since then we have had:

Operation Southern Watch

Operation Northern Watch

Operations in the Balkans

Operation Enduring Freedom

Operation Iraqi Freedom

Operation Odyssey Dawn

Operation Inherent Resolve

The F-15E has participated in far more conflicts with AMRAMMs available as a weapon than when it hasn't. This alone is a very important consideration.

A F-15E with SARH only is a better opponent for an F14A with SARH only.

Why are F-15Es and F-14s fighting each other?

When you introduce one add-on that is perceived as the best of the best, the most dominant, it will tend to affect player behaviors and ride choices, the add-ons they will use or think they need to have in DCS and it all matters, dude.

You assume everyone believes the F-15 is superior to everything else available in DCS...I can think of a few pilots flying the Flanker on a regular basis who would smile and disagree with you completely. People are going to buy and fly what they like...its really that simple.

What is the counter for a AIM-120 carrying F15E?

Nothing. You are absolutely correct. There is no match for an F-15E with AIM-120s. It's not a fair fight. (The Flanker drivers mentioned earlier might disagree...) And its the same in real life. It seems to me this is the problem...You don't want fair fights. You want the F-15E to be EQUAL to all the other planes...which is in fact hobbling the sim. You seem to believe other players will suffer at the hands of F-15E drivers because they are flying inferior aircraft. I guess pilot skill doesn't figure into your equations?

If you want to personally insult me, do so in person, cyber bullying on flight sim forums is super lame. So could you stay on planes and not me? My opinion is childish? This isn't about whether or not you think my opinion is childish, right? You want the AIM-120, as simple as that, right? There is nothing wrong with that. There is no politically correct version of the F-15E. I am not personally attacking you or anyone else for an interest in the AIM-120. I have an issue with the introduction of the AIM-120 on a F-15E add-on, I don;t have a problem with you or the other supporters of the missile, the dev teams, etc. This is a flight sim forum, not a place for your personal attacks and cheap shots. You don't like my ideas and perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but I am not your pin cushion. If you want to bully me, do so in person, pal. :smilewink: Thanks.

LOL Who's being cyber bullied? Go back and look at your posts. Everyone who has disagreed with you on this subject has received the same tirade about SARH this, Fighting F-14s that, Unfair this....If someone disagrees you tell them all the reasons they are wrong.

You seem insistent that the version of F-15E produced must be EQUAL to the F-14 by limiting its ability to carry a particular missile. A missile it has carried for the majority of its service life...because YOU feel this missile gives the F-15E an unfair advantage.

But choosing a thin segment of history when the F-15E COULDN'T carry AMMRAMS to represent it in the sim just so things will be fair...is hobbling it.