F-8 Crusader

But it scored more kills with missiles than guns :)

But it scored more kills with missiles than guns :)

At least according to US sources, it was only shot down by guns though. Maybe that is where the name comes from. :P

But it scored more kills with missiles than guns :)

Shhh! It's a gunfighter! Everybody knows! :D

But my AIM-9D and AIM-9G!

Shhh! It's a gunfighter! Everybody knows! :D

Is it really when the guns jam every time you pull G? :P

Is it really when the guns jam every time you pull G? :P

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SILENCE

Is it really when the guns jam every time you pull G? :P

Since the MiG-21bis seems to be the only module to model jams - it would be interesting if this could be made a special option for the F-8 for the sake of realism. The sources I've read said it happened in Vietnam 3 of 8 firings at least until Dec 1966 (source) and another says it would happen above 3.5G and that strafing was not an issue (F-8 vs MiG-17 Osprey book).

I don't know if there is any real data stating that it happens 100% only above a certain G or if it was completely unpredictable but it would be really immersive.

Since the MiG-21bis seems to be the only module to model jams - it would be interesting if this could be made a special option for the F-8 for the sake of realism. The sources I've read said it happened in Vietnam 3 of 8 firings at least until Dec 1966 (source) and another says it would happen above 3.5G and that strafing was not an issue (F-8 vs MiG-17 Osprey book).

 

I don't know if there is any real data stating that it happens 100% only above a certain G or if it was completely unpredictable but it would be really immersive.

Yep I agree. I imagine it was unpredictable because aircraft have been able to pull more than 3g for a long time, so having guns that consistently jam at such low loads makes no sense.

Do we know if it was firing while pulling G's that jammed them or that simply pulling the G's would cause them to jam the next time they were fired?

I'd imagine it was only when firing and the action cycles the rounds, atleast that's the typical reason if we discount broken belt linkages which I haven't read the F8 suffering from. Also like Sgt.Pappy I'm sceptical it was a 100% thing, being more inclined to believe it was more of a tendency. Otherwise it should've shown up immediately during testing.

In the MK-12 gun system jams were usually in the feed mechanism and not the gun itself. G-loading and maneuvering would bind the belt in the link chute. I have worked on MK-12 gun systems but not on the F-8, I don't know what the ammo can looks like for the F-8, (there are variants of cans) but the feed mechanism or chute into the gun was most likely the same or similar on all A/C using MK-12's. From my experience either the gun would jam when the cannons were charged (1st round) and not fire, else jam up during firing cycle which would render the gun inop. In a nutshell it was a crap shoot whether the guns would fire or not.

Joe "Hoser" Satrapa did hit a steam locomotive with a sidewinder during F-8 mission in Nam 1968. In his own words:

D-Hose and Rick Wenzil see a steam engine with boo coo box cars nearing a tunnel through a medium size mountain. We switch 333.3 (code, Quad 3) "One's in, 20mm"... Just like we teach in strafing, go lenght wise to the column of vehicles, not perpendicular. Thirty degree angle dive, 500 knots, yaw string centered, 17 mils on the pipper, 4000 feet AGL, squeeze the trigger. DAMN! Swooossh! AIM-9D goes whizzing by my right ear. Holygwakaskamoly! Damn, had winder selected instead of guns... but, what ho! The bad boy was guiding on the engine! Kafrickingboooomm! The steam plume went straight up in the air just like those WWII, P-51 gun camera pics. The train coasted to a stop bout 500 feet short of the tunnel. Rick and I made 20mm HEI/tracer runs on it till we were Winchester. Good secondaries, and then some A-4's Off the Bonnie Dick came in and finished what was left. After RTB Intrepid, CAG asked me where my Winder went. I told him. He said Good Thinking! Ya but, CAG it was a accident! He said, "son ya, cain't argue with success." And they wrote up an NCM(V). Go figure.

Maybe there’s hope after the FLIR rework that it might’ve possible in DCS....

In the MK-12 gun system jams were usually in the feed mechanism and not the gun itself. G-loading and maneuvering would bind the belt in the link chute. I have worked on MK-12 gun systems but not on the F-8, I don't know what the ammo can looks like for the F-8, (there are variants of cans) but the feed mechanism or chute into the gun was most likely the same or similar on all A/C using MK-12's. From my experience either the gun would jam when the cannons were charged (1st round) and not fire, else jam up during firing cycle which would render the gun inop. In a nutshell it was a crap shoot whether the guns would fire or not.

Yeah that doesn't sound very confidence inspiring for the pilots :S

I've read in one of the books pilots statement that situation could be improved with careful and thorough maintenance but what they really did to reduce chance of jamming was charging the gun at the very last moment. Would have to find a specific quote but pilot recommended to wait with switching all the switches for armament.

Joe "Hoser" Satrapa did hit a steam locomotive with a sidewinder during F-8 mission in Nam 1968. In his own words:

Using the R-3S against ground targets is thoroughly described in the (real) MiG-21Bis manual, so I am not utterly surprised this does work. And an open steam boiler is about the most grateful IR ground target I could think of.

Use of Sidewinders against ground targets was also described in the manuals. Not sure if I've seen this in Phantom or Crusaderather tac manual though.

I've read in one of the books pilots statement that situation could be improved with careful and thorough maintenance but what they really did to reduce chance of jamming was charging the gun at the very last moment. Would have to find a specific quote but pilot recommended to wait with switching all the switches for armament.

You would not charge the guns anyway until you were going to use it, but charging the gun while g-loading or maneuvering could bind things up.

I'm not sure maintenance had anything to due with it unless it was a different issue. Link chutes and ammo cans were not installed unless the the MK-12 was loaded and not part of 210 day inspections. 210 day inspections the gun was completely pulled and dissembled and test fired with Primer only cartridge. Pretty much the most common issues with the actual gun itself was the firing pin not making proper contact with the primer (electrically primed) or the control box to feed firing voltage to the the firing pin in the breech block. Other issues were related to the gun Nitrogen system or the charging valve. Last crappy ammo. :)

Just in general belt fed gun systems are not that reliable as anything could go wrong.

If I remember correctly RAF Harrier pilot David Morgan described in his book how he tested the then-new AIM-9L on a training flight and got the seeker to lock onto a rail car carrying freshly rolled steel, a garden bonfire and a large pile of manure.

Another thing I cannot seem to figure out are these plots (attached). The F-8E tactical combat supplement has a plot for sustained turn rates as well as P_s plots. Thing is, the former is in CAS and the latter, in true Mach. At first glance, it appears that the error from CAS is so small at 5000 ft that they match - the STR plot says 410 KCAS at 5G (5000 ft alt) and the P_s plot says true Mach 0.62 for a sustained 5G (5000 ft alt).

However when I cross-referenced with the F-8H/J manual speed conversion chart (from CAS to true Mach and TAS), it appears that if I take 410 KCAS, that's a Mach of 0.66 and TAS of ~430 kn.

The plots do not all seem to agree - that is 410 KCAS at 5000 ft =/= true Mach 0.62.. I do not think the F-8J instrumentation changed since the F-8E either. Does anyone have an explanation?

F-8E sustained turn rate plots

F-8H/J speed conversion chart

Yeah there is a correlation issue here, but since the Ps plots are for TMN I think they are the most "accurate", as in only they are comparable with the EM charts of other aircraft which are also graphed for TMN.

Vought F-8J would go well with an A-4E Skyhawk on an angled-deck, Essex-class carrier. Although an Essex-class carrier appears to be in-works for the F4U-1D Corsair, the much modified angled-deck Essex with steam catapults is almost completely different, externally, other than having the same hull. CVA-11 Intrepid, CVA-14 Ticonderoga, CVA-19 Hancock, first group with starboard elevator more aft and CVA-16 Lexington, CVA-31 BonHomme Richard, CVA-34 Oriskany and CVA-38 Shangri-La second group with starboard elevator more forward. Since the F-4 Phantom and A-6 Intruder could not operate from the angled-deck Essex carriers, the F-8 Crusader and A-4 Skyhawk were the primary air arm of those ships during the Vietnam War. Ironically, the large EKA-3B Skywarrior could operate from these carriers. There's a nice color picture on Wikipedia of an EKA-3B refueling an F-8J from USS Hancock in 1972. The Community A-4E-C is almost good enough...loads of fun to fly. It needs to be a full module so that it can have a radio and work with SRS and do inflight refueling, including being a buddy refueler. Also, DCS needs to add 57mm and 85mm AA guns, which should be fairly simple. Until then, the WWII Assets' 88mm Flak guns can do as a proxy. I use them now in single-player missions for the A-4E-C.

Anxiously awaiting the F-8J and, hopefully, its Essex carrier! And AI versions of the EKA-3B Skywarrior, E-1A Tracer (AW), SH-2 Seasprite helo.

You know what also would go well with F-8J ?

This:

I'm sorry but I couldnt hold myself :) Phantom fan here.

As for A-4E. Absolutely, would love to see it as full fidelity module. Mods are fine, but there is a point I feel it gets more inconvenient to run it like that instead of fully integrated version.

I really think ED should develop a carrier version of the Phantom instead of the Air Force E model once they come back to the Phantom.