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There appears to be a defect in Clear Trim (ctrl + T)


Reticuli

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There appears to be a defect in Clear Trim (ctrl + T), as it's not just clearing the manual trim state of the internal DCS virtual cyclic when the stick is actually being deflected at that moment, but appears to be either resetting the SAS values in that moment or doing something else that's causing a slight wiggle. So I have the new AutoTrimmer OFF, no manual trim set as I have already cleared it once before, and am using either GlovePIE or just applying a constant stick pressure with the GlovePIE script OFF, yet still this slight immediate alteration of the helo attitude happens specifically with ctrl + T. At first I thought something was messed up in my GlovePIE auto trimming script, but I just looked at the values while pressing crtl + T and they do not change. Something funky is going on with your Clear Trim. This happens in all three DCS Options-Special-Ka-50 trimmer modes, by the way.

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Would you mind elaborating what's going on with your automatic trimmer script? If you use GlovePIE to deal with the trimming, what do you need the in-game reset for?

Also, the in-game trimmer sets parameters for the autopilot on top of re-setting the stick center, so you should really be using that if you want to fly properly.

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Would you mind elaborating what's going on with your automatic trimmer script? If you use GlovePIE to deal with the trimming, what do you need the in-game reset for?

Also, the in-game trimmer sets parameters for the autopilot on top of re-setting the stick center, so you should really be using that if you want to fly properly.

 

This defect has nothing to do with the GlovePIE script. I just notice that when I clear the in-DCS manual trim using crtl+T, it's still wobbling the helo regardless of GlovePIE being used or not. I was just pointing that out in case people thought it was specifically from using the autotrimming in GlovePIE or in DCS's own new not-quite-right autotrimmer. I don't clear trim often, usually only once when first jumping into the helo. I just noticed if I do it later it still makes the helo wobble a little in flight even though DCS has no manual trim set at that moment... which is weird, like the SAS or something is being reset.


Edited by Reticuli

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As far as i know, trim reset is only advised to be used on the ground after landing. Avoid using it when airborne.

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As far as i know, trim reset is only advised to be used on the ground after landing. Avoid using it when airborne.

 

 

I call it the crash button, once pressed it goes pretty bad after that


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All trim reset does is return the virtual joystick position back to the center so that your joystick movements will start back at the center point. It's useful if your trimmed virtual joystick position is somewhere off in the corner and you need to quickly bring it back to center. It's a "control" that doesn't exist in the real aircraft and is only useful for spring-based joysticks without FFB.

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All trim reset does is return the virtual joystick position back to the center so that your joystick movements will start back at the center point. It's useful if your trimmed virtual joystick position is somewhere off in the corner and you need to quickly bring it back to center. It's a "control" that doesn't exist in the real aircraft and is only useful for spring-based joysticks without FFB.

 

It seems to be either doing more or doing just what you're saying with a lag, possibly because it's oddly momentarily sending the virtual joystick to the center position with a slight delay prior it picking back up your joystick's actual position.


Edited by Reticuli

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I tried it just now and there doesn't seem to be any issues with trim reset. On the right is my physical joystick position and on the left is the virtual position of the cyclic. When I trim away from the center point and reset the trim, the virtual position correctly jumps back to center, and all my joystick movements are once again relative to the center position:

 

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Perhaps you should just try it out without several home-brewn scripts of automatisation. That sort of modification is notorious for introducing some 'lag' either by adding actual latency or by trying to buffer things that aren't supposed to be buffered.

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I tried it just now and there doesn't seem to be any issues with trim reset. On the right is my physical joystick position and on the left is the virtual position of the cyclic. When I trim away from the center point and reset the trim, the virtual position correctly jumps back to center, and all my joystick movements are once again relative to the center position:

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I see with the controls indicator, but the helo still wobbles a little. Does it not wobble for you? Try holding a physical joystick position (very still or with same pressure) when you do it while in flight.

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Perhaps you should just try it out without several home-brewn scripts of automatisation. That sort of modification is notorious for introducing some 'lag' either by adding actual latency or by trying to buffer things that aren't supposed to be buffered.

 

Happens independent of "several home-brewn scripts of automatisation".

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Try holding a physical joystick position (very still or with same pressure) when you do it while in flight.

 

If you hold a position while pressing reset trim, the trim will reset back to the center position, then your input is added to that. This happens in one step, so it won't jump back to center before applying your input:

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by wobble.

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If you hold a position while pressing reset trim, the trim will reset back to the center position, then your input is added to that. This happens in one step, so it won't jump back to center before applying your input:

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by wobble.

 

In flight, not on the ground. Clear the trim. Then hold the stick in a position or at a constant pressure. Wait for the aircraft to stabilize. Clear trim again while still holding that joystick position/pressure. I'm curious why the aircraft is wobbling or acting like it's got a slight change in control input when you clear trim again. Perhaps CTRL + T is resetting the SAS or there's a lag between the virtual cyclic returning to center and the sim re-detecting the physical joystick.


Edited by Reticuli

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Just did a 2 minute test on this:

 

Using the trim reset will also send your current attitude to the autopilot (just like using the normal trim). This can be observed by engaging flight director, going into a turn and then resetting the trim. The "flight director bars" on the HUD will be at an angle.

 

So, if you're sitting on the ground and use the reset, your flight controls will be in the default state. I'm 100% sure THIS is the intended use and nothing else, so there isn't any defect.

 

But I have to ask: Why would you even need to reset your trim?

 

In the Ka-50 you hold the trimmer, get to the desired heading/attitude and release. This is what you should be doing and unless you seriously messed up your trim there should never be a necessity to reset it. I haven't used the reset once in flight ever and I've been flying this thing for many years.

 

If you depend on the trim reset you're doing it wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if that's related to your mystical auto-trimmer script.


Edited by fudabidu
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Just did a 2 minute test on this:

 

Using the trim reset will also send your current attitude to the autopilot (just like using the normal trim). This can be observed by engaging flight director, going into a turn and then resetting the trim. The "flight director bars" on the HUD will be at an angle.

 

So, if you're sitting on the ground and use the reset, your flight controls will be in the default state. I'm 100% sure THIS is the intended use and nothing else, so there isn't any defect.

 

But I have to ask: Why would you even need to reset your trim?

 

In the Ka-50 you hold the trimmer, get to the desired heading/attitude and release. This is what you should be doing and unless you seriously messed up your trim there should never be a necessity to reset it. I haven't used the reset once in flight ever and I've been flying this thing for many years.

 

If you depend on the trim reset you're doing it wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if that's related to your mystical auto-trimmer script.

 

Thank you.

 

Not sure why you're still mentioning anything about being on the ground.

 

"If you depend on the trim reset you're doing it wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if that's related to your mystical auto-trimmer script."

 

I'm not. It's not. You're missing the point.

 

"Using the trim reset will also send your current attitude to the autopilot (just like using the normal trim)."

 

That doesn't seem to be what ought to be happening.

 

One does not need to clear trim a second time. I just randomly did it and found it still caused a wobble in flight with the stick pressure held constant, like something else was going on other than actually just clearing the in-sim manual trim state. This will also occur with the Joystick Without Springs and FFB trimmer mode when your big pro cyclic physically holds a position. This appears to possibly be just a minor bug, but I wanted see if other people could replicate it before saying so in the bug section.


Edited by Reticuli

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Reticuli, try your script with all autopilot/stabilization channels disabled, to see if you can for sure eliminate any autopilot/stabilization inputs from adversely affecting your Kamov.

 

Are you saying you want me to turn GlovePIE on and test it with the Ka-50 SAS channels all off? Because I've repeatedly mentioned in this thread that I've replicated this without the scripts active.


Edited by Reticuli

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OK so... when you trim from an attitude that hasn't quite reached equilibrium the AP channels will hold up to I think it's 20% deflection from the trimmed spot in order to maintain attitude.

 

When you press trim again, that "offset" hold will be released and the control surfaces will hop back to exactly where the trimmed location is.

 

I'd bet this is your issue.

 

Also... Stop using the trim reset that way. It's not designed to work that way, nobody uses it that way. even if it IS a bug... I don't personally think it's worth addressing. I don't actually think I've EVER used trim reset. Not even once.

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I can confirm that there's something funky going on with trim reset. I have my joystick set to Joystick Without Springs and FFB, in an auto-hover pressing trim reset will cause the helicopter to change its position slightly without any input:

 

 

It's more obvious when flying forward. Without any input, pressing trim reset will cause the helicopter to bob:

 

 

Because I'm on Joystick Without Springs and FFB mode, pressing trim reset theoretically shouldn't do anything because there's no trim that needs resetting, yet something is happening. So there indeed appears to be an issue with trim reset.

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Hmm... I still say it's the AP channel authority offset being temporarily removed.

 

In AH... When you set a location, the trim doesn't hold the control surfaces where they are like "trim" would normally... It moves the control surfaces around to keep the airframe where it is.

 

When you press trim reset it temporarily removes all AP applied control input from the trim system, then allows the trim systems to catch the airframe and attempt to keep it where it's at.

 

When in steady state flight the same is true aside from the fact that it's attempting to maintain a flight envelope instead of an attitude. Normal trim maintains an "attitude". KA-50 trim maintains a flight envelope.

 

To do so... It allows the trim systems (or more correctly the AP channels) to exert a specific amount of control authority as an "offset" to the trimmed stick position vs. flight envelope.

 

 

Maybe I'm confused as to how it works, though I'm pretty sure I'm not, but it makes perfect sense that the KA-50 does this when trim reset is pressed... IF... your initial trim is not perfect AND there have been no environmental change (wind etc) since you trimmed. IMO it's basically impossible to get a "perfect trim". And... the examples in the videos are basically creating the perfect setup to make this happen if the trim system works as I understand it does.


Edited by M1Combat

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I don't know what trim reset is actually doing, but what it's supposed to be doing is only resetting the trim back to the center position and nothing else. It's not a control that exists in the actual helicopter, and is only a convenience control for spring-based joystick users to reset the position back to center. For joysticks without spring and FFB, it shouldn't do anything at all. This behavior is occurring when Flight Director is on as well, so it's not related to the AP attitude holds. It's almost like it's temporarily disabling the SAS, but it's hard to tell for sure.

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I don't think that trim reset sets it back to "the middle" exactly.

 

When you take off (with no wind or anything... let's keep it simple :)) you will generally hold trim and increase power while moving the cyclic forwards until the aircraft is just about to take off and just about to move forwards. At first it will only be trying to lift the front gear. You keep moving the stick forwards and increasing power until you have all three landing gear extended as far as they'll go without lifting or moving forwards. Then release trim and take off. If you've done this correctly then you should mostly go straight up as I recall. From this point on you DO NOT want the trim location to move back to where it was.

 

So... It stands to reason that trim reset will set the trim back to the center of the KA-50's stick travel... where it is when you start the aircraft... but not back to wherever the current "controller" is at or something like that. I'm still not sure it's not doing whatever the FM programmer wanted it to do... It seems like it's working in a way that seems inconvenient to a few people for some reason... and I can empathize with that... but since it's not a real thing I'm not sure we can say it's not working correctly. That said... With the way I understand the trim system and what I feel like the "trim reset" would/should do... it's doing what I expect it would do.

 

Also...

 

I've never used it. I think I may have hit it once to see what it does... but I'm not even sure of that.


Edited by M1Combat

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Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis)

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