Jump to content

Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


M0ltar

Recommended Posts

It looks like some people skipped rule number one.

 

Mover, thanks for everything you are doing. I find JT to be a hilarious guy and I can't wait to hear the commentary. I never thought of him as a DCS fan though so it should be interesting getting his take on things. I can't wait to see the stream while sipping my cup of GS Gunship. Keep up the good work!

 

Thanks! JT is actually a big fan of DCS. He even has his own demo team! :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well at 400 kias, 15k, I can crank the stick all the way back and not over-g my mirage so...

 

*grabs popcorn*

 

Steels ya popcorn from my Viper at 16 G's ;)

OS: Win10 home 64bit*MB: Asus Strix Z270F/

CPU: Intel I7 7700k /Ram:32gb_ddr4

GFX: Nvidia Asus 1080 8Gb

Mon: Asus vg2448qe 24"

Disk: SSD

Stick: TM Warthog #1400/Saitek pro pedals/TIR5/TM MFDs

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But real simple.

 

Rules have been set. Start training to comply.

 

Cool insight from real pilots is always great .

 

Thank you :)

OS: Win10 home 64bit*MB: Asus Strix Z270F/

CPU: Intel I7 7700k /Ram:32gb_ddr4

GFX: Nvidia Asus 1080 8Gb

Mon: Asus vg2448qe 24"

Disk: SSD

Stick: TM Warthog #1400/Saitek pro pedals/TIR5/TM MFDs

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shouldn't it be a tournament that chooses players who can beat falco?

It's a tournament to benefit charity.

 

The winner gets to fight Falco.

 

The player that wins the tournament will have proven that he/she has the best shot of beating Falco among all the other competitors.


Edited by Mover
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don't get the G-limits, the F14 is limited to its pretty harsh peace time 7G limit and yet its fully capable of pulling more and not only that its hard to control the g in that jet not only due to the location of the g meter but also just the handling of the jet. And in the case of the F15, iirc there was a case in the gulf war of a merge between an F15 and mig25 (29?) where the F15 as far as i'm aware did a 12g split S. Even in the FLCS jets its very possible in certain maneuvers or in particular hard jinks to go over the set g-limits even if you don't intend too. Like... I just want to dogfight not have to be constantly staring at the g-meter. You can't limit yourself based off of feel like irl. I was considering participating but the g-limits, no offset turns, and landing requirement are a major and total off put no interest after reading those.

 

 

Agreed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're a tomcat driver and you still get kills while adhering to the (apparent) real world g-limits, just consider it bragging rights. Besides even with the g-limits I'm sure you guys who are dogfighting every day will be able to mop up guys like me. So have fun.

 

 

Banner EDForum2020.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're a tomcat driver and you still get kills while adhering to the (apparent) real world g-limits, just consider it bragging rights. Besides even with the g-limits I'm sure you guys who are dogfighting every day will be able to mop up guys like me. So have fun.

 

Very big bragging rights I'd say as just keeping SA whilst having to constantly monitor that small G meter far down on the right is a monumental if not impossible task on its own. A real pilot would atleast be able to feel the G's and by that method stay within limits, but us simmers are forced to look down and away from the bandit to constantly check if we're within the G limits.

 

Hence why I believe this whole G limit thing is a bit silly, but I can also see the argument from the other side, i.e. that they're wanting to keep things more inline with a real life training scenario. It's just I think we lack too many of the cues that a real pilot would have for this rule to really make sense in a competition.

 

Anyway with that in mind if I was competing I'd stick with a fighter that simply doesn't allow you to pull more G than the max allowed. Do that and you've already given yourself a massive advantage over any of the guys who don't, and hence my prediction is that the M2000 & Viper are gonna be near the top. (M2000 is safest bet with currently rules & performance of aircraft in DCS IMHO)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very big bragging rights I'd say as just keeping SA whilst having to constantly monitor that small G meter far down on the right is a monumental if not impossible task on its own. A real pilot would atleast be able to feel the G's and by that method stay within limits, but us simmers are forced to look down and away from the bandit to constantly check if we're within the G limits.

 

Hence why I believe this whole G limit thing is a bit silly, but I can also see the argument from the other side, i.e. that they're wanting to keep things more inline with a real life training scenario. It's just I think we lack too many of the cues that a real pilot would have for this rule to really make sense in a competition.

 

Anyway with that in mind if I was competing I'd stick with a fighter that simply doesn't allow you to pull more G than the max allowed. Do that and you've already given yourself a massive advantage over any of the guys who don't, and hence my prediction is that the M2000 & Viper are gonna be near the top. (M2000 is safest bet with currently rules & performance of aircraft in DCS IMHO)

 

Wait, how many of you who don't like the g-limit aren't even competing?

 

Yes it'll be easy for jets designed for high-g maneuvers (F-15, Mirage, F-16, Flankers?) to do those maneuvers without paying too much attention to the g-limit rule, but the tomcat driver will have to stop destroying his flaps and pulling 9 Gs and the F-18 will have to stop holding down the paddle switch. The F-14 can I *assume* still over-power the mirage, and the F-18 wants to be under 400 knots anyways so the g-limit shouldn't matter other than preventing them from using the switch that they shouldn't be using if they want to simulate a dogfight as opposed to an arcade game. I'm under the impression that the dogfight servers are full of tomcat and hornet drivers who want those jets to do things they aren't supposed to do, but I don't really know.

 

I really shouldn't engage in this debate because I'm just a singleplayer schmuck so... I should stop here. I doubt I'll make it very far in the bracket anyways, but it'll be fun to try. My buddy is rooting for my opponnents because he wants to laugh at me crash and burn so it's all good my friend :D

 

Besides, this way if I DO make it far in the bracket (or win) then everyone can just say it was because the mirage has a high g-limit :thumbup:

 

 

Banner EDForum2020.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gonky and I will be doing a live chat and Q&A specifically about the tournament tonight at 8:30PM ET on my YouTube channel. Bring your questions. Throw spears. We will explain as best we can.

 

 

 

I said to myself "What possible drama could have erupted about a charity event based on a flight game?"

 

Yes, I know we like to think DCS is a simulation and not a game, but come on people, it's a game. It's a GREAT game with details lacking in any other, but it's still a game. Because no one will every die playing this game.

 

This happens when people play paintball/laser tag too. People think they can be part of CAG or DEVGRU with awesome shots during a game.

 

It's mind boggling how people can get wrapped around an axle about nothing.

 

Also, for those of you that want to support this, you can still go to the website (in Mover's description) and donate w/o having to sign up for the tournament.

 

Have fun everyone!

hsb

HW Spec in Spoiler

---

 

i7-10700K Direct-To-Die/OC'ed to 5.1GHz, MSI Z490 MB, 32GB DDR4 3200MHz, EVGA 2080 Ti FTW3, NVMe+SSD, Win 10 x64 Pro, MFG, Warthog, TM MFDs, Komodo Huey set, Rverbe G1

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, how many of you who don't like the g-limit aren't even competing?

 

Well it's part of the reason I don't really want to compete, as I know which aircraft are going to dominate almost solely because of this rule. Hence why I'm arguing against, but respect if they wanna keep it.

 

The main reason though is that over ocean I lose bandits & SA due to using an inadequate 15" laptop screen, so I'm kinda limited to BFM over desert maps if not allowed to use dot mod.

 

Yes it'll be easy for jets designed for high-g maneuvers (F-15, Mirage, F-16, Flankers?) to do those maneuvers without paying too much attention to the g-limit rule,

 

It won't be easy in the F-15 as it doesn't have a built in limiter either, hence the Eagle pilot will have to keep an eye on the G's as well, although his HUD G indicator makes this much easier than in the Cat. The aircraft that really benefit from this rule, enormously so, are the ones that don't allow the pilot to supercede the limit, such as the F-16, Mirage & F/A-18 (although the latters FLCS apparently has a tendency to overshoot very briefly sometimes).

 

but the tomcat driver will have to stop destroying his flaps and pulling 9 Gs and the F-18 will have to stop holding down the paddle switch. The F-14 can I *assume* still over-power the mirage, and the F-18 wants to be under 400 knots anyways so the g-limit shouldn't matter other than preventing them from using the switch that they shouldn't be using if they want to simulate a dogfight as opposed to an arcade game. I'm under the impression that the dogfight servers are full of tomcat and hornet drivers who want those jets to do things they aren't supposed to do, but I don't really know.

 

I really shouldn't engage in this debate because I'm just a singleplayer schmuck so... I should stop here. I doubt I'll make it very far in the bracket anyways, but it'll be fun to try. My buddy is rooting for my opponnents because he wants to laugh at me crash and burn so it's all good my friend :D

 

Besides, this way if I DO make it far in the bracket (or win) then everyone can just say it was because the mirage has a high g-limit :thumbup:

 

Well that's where my "objection", so to speak, starts, because the F-15 & F-16 (and I bet also the Mirage) weren't actually designed with a higher ultimate load limit than the F-14, they were just operated under very different operational conditions which dictated their higher operational load limit. Had the F-14 been selected by the USAAF (Grumman offered it), and orders for new airframes been kept going, it would've ended up with the same G rating as the F-15.

 

Also I've basically never used auxilliary flaps in dogfights with the F-14 in DCS, I've always just kept it in auto. Mainly as if you're using the auxilliary flaps above 275 kts they jam, and then all the opponenet has to do is start using the vertical and you're done for. So I never really understood why people did it at anything but VERY low speed, where I suppose it's still allowed in FOH.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible that the dogfight players have tried to pigeon-hole their airframes into a certain style of guns-only dogfighting when they weren't meant to really fly that way? In other words, they've gameified their sim? Just an assumption of mine. Not sure either way.

 

Even if I was flying one of the other jets I'd be ok with the rules. I'd just go practice.

 

Edit: So I probably feel less concerned about this because I don't care if I win or lose, but I know what it's like to be invested in a competition and want to win. I understand. I've won local tournaments with specific rules, and I've lost several fighting game tournaments, coming as close as 5th on less known games. So I get your perspective. But I also think if ya'll are good enough to have a serious shot at winning then you can practice to win under the ruleset and be happy that the money goes to charity.


Edited by Relic

 

 

Banner EDForum2020.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a humble observation, but could we stop this petty argument about the tournament rules? Here we have a person who's done what each of us dreams about, when we are sitting in front of our monitors or with our headsets on. And he's taken enough liking to our small online gaming community to organise this opportunity.

 

We actually have a chance to save a life without having to pull the paddle switch in Hornet or yanking the stick to over G our Tomcats by signing up or donating and offer a chance of education to someone who's lost a loved one or have them become disabled.

 

Can't see things getting any realer than that.

i9-9900K @ 5.1GHz | MSI Ventus 3X OC RTX3090 24GB | 64GB 3200MHz DDR4 | Asus ROG Strix Z390-E | Asus Xonar DGX 5.1 Sound Card | Virpil T50CM2 base w/ F/A-18C / A-10C / Virpil T50CM2 Grip | WinWing Super Taurus Throttle | MFG pedals | TekCreations Hornet UFC, Landing Panel, Right Console | WinWing Hornet Combat Ready Panel | Buddy Fox UFC | Foxx Mount | 3 x TM Cougar MFD | HP Reverb G2 | Wacom Intuos S (with VRK) | Honeycomb Alpha Yoke | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | CH Fighter Stick Pro & Throttle | MS Sidewinder 2 FFB | Track IR 5 | Oculus Rift CV1

善く戦う者は、まず勝つべからざるを為して、以て敵の勝つべきを待つ。

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's interesting. He specifically says he merged at 325 with the flaps down. A full 100 knots over the max flap speed.

 

 

I think that a pilot with more then 4800 hours on F14 in war and in peace time knows very well what he is talking about. It's this the reason i think that NATOPS graphics don't tell the truth about F14 and also 8g limit it's not realistic. Snodgrass made those Lectures at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in July 2019 and i think nobody has the skills to say anything different, also real pilots of F16 and F18 who have less then one third of his flying hours on other planes. Other videos are coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said earlier that the Tomcat has no G limit, but in the actual Grumman documentation and Natops it had a G limit of 7.5. You’re basing all of your assertions on what you’ve read in books and online and continually put down input provided by real world jet pilots right here in this thread. It makes you come across as a know it all, but in reality I’m betting you have no real world experience. I just can’t wrap my head around how you can do that.

 

 

When i wrote that Tomcat has no g-limit, i mean that there is no limiter and the pilot can decide to pull till the plane breaks

 

 

 

Just because a pilot did something doesn’t mean it was right or should have been done, in your case your accounts about this 14 pilot. Lots of these planes can pull more than the rated G. However if you do do that bad things can happen which is exactly why it should not be done unless you are going to fly into the ground and become part of the dirt. Planes are not expendable assets. Planes are war machines used to fight. A plane that was over limited has to be taken down and serviced or even worse decommissioned to make it capable again and a plane that is down is one less plane that can be used to fight.

 

 

Snodgrass it'not a simple pilot, perhaps he is "The Pilot" for excellense of F14: pluridecorated, 26 years and more than 4800 hours (i don't know if the 3 pilots involved in the tournament all together can reach 4800 hours on a single war plane) on the Tomcat. I think nobody can match him and no other F14 pilot is called to made conference by institutions. Take a look at this:

 

 

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

 

 

 

So my suggestion to everyone here is to get off your high horse and listen to the guys that have done this in real life. And when I say listen to the guys that have done it in real life I mean the people that you can talk to right here and right now and not from some book. Mover, Lex, and GB have all flown in real life and still do to this day so discounting what they’re saying comes across as close minded and self absorbed.

 

This event is going to have G limits whether you like it or not so continued complaining about it is going to do nothing. Let’s all work towards having a good time and raising funds for an awesome charity.

 

 

 

So my suggestion is to listen what the most skilled F14 pilot in history say about the plane limits and listen to what he say about real life mock dogfight (F14B vs F15) during which the plane was also damaged but it was and it was normal in a match between Airforce and Navy, i call this realism because it really happened and i would like in a tournament the same realism

 

 

This about g-limits:

 

 

And this about F14B vs F15


Edited by maxsin72
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are roe, just like the real world has roe... If you want to play fine,if you don't want to play donate, the cause is awesome...

SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware Intel Corei7-12700KF @ 5.1/5.3p & 3.8e GHz, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Dell S2716DG, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero
SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO

1569924735_WildcardsBadgerFAASig.jpg.dbb8c2a337e37c2bfb12855f86d70fd5.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just signed up. Not expecting to win at all, why? I just had PRK and can't practice, so I'll be coming in cold. Regardless, I'll suck with confidence, lose with honor, and know I helped a good cause!

Rig: i9 10900KF @5.3GHz | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 3600MHz | ASUS ROG STRIX RTX 3090 24GB OC | ASUS Maximus XII Formula | 2x 2TB Intel SSD6 NVMe M.2 | VKB F-14CG on Gunfighter III Base | TM Warthog HOTAS | TM Rudder Pedals | HP Reverb G2

Hangar: FC3 | F-86F | F-4E [Pre-Ordered] | F-5E | F-14A/B | F-15E | F-16C | F/A-18C | Mirage 2000C | JF-17 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19P | MiG-21bis | AJS-37 | AV-8B | L39 | C-101 | A-10C/CII | Yak-52 | P-51D | P-47D | Fw 190 A-8/D-9 | Bf 109 | Spitfire | I-16 | UH-1 Huey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Little story about F14 vs F18 and prohibited full flaps in real life :D

 

 

 

"It isn't that i was that much a better pilot, it is that i cheated better".

 

I'm sorry my friend, you are lacking so much pilot culture context that many of your conclusions are derived from misconstruing information.

 

Everything he discribed in this video was tantamount to pulling the paddle switch in the hornet. For which his cocky young marine adversary did not do, and the 18 lost for "not cheating better" . The nuance is that it had very little to do with the raw performance and/or limitations of the aircraft involved, and everything to do with that he simply out smarted the young 18 driver. He broke natops limits resulting the 18 driver to mis judge and fly his aircraft incorrectly. His entire point was that he could trick the cocky pilot into flying poorly. To conclude that over G-ing an aircraft, pulling circuit breakers, manually sweeping the wings and dumping to bingo fuel is the norm is ridiculous. CAPT Snodgrass made a HUGE gamble that he was hoping the 18 drivers ego would deliver on, and it did. Had he done that against someone who knew better, he would have got his ass handed to him, which he also knew. It was a calculated decision with a spacific goal, and that goal was not to prove the performance of the 14 vrs the 18, it was basically "despite the performance of the hardware, ya don't know everything, kid".

 

Since this thread is chock full of theory crafting, an alternate and much more "realistic" scenario could easly be: Had the 18 driver been patient and flew the aircraft correctly, he would have flowen the hornets superior alpha turning inside to deny his shots (abiding by all natops limits mind you) all while letting the 14 driver beat up his own aircraft untill it performed like a tin can only exacerbating the 18s nose authority advantage, or simply wait for him to try all his AB vertical maneuvers burning down his thimble size amount of gas he dumped down to (probably one chance at most given the numbers he sighted). Hell, had the smart ass marine been able to curb his attitude, he could have easly scored a deck kill without ever having to pull the trigger when the 14 simulated flamed out from lack of gas . Then the 14 driver gets to go home and look all his maintainers in the eyes explaining why he did what he did.

 

You are having a hard time deducing success from what can be attributed to the performance of the aircraft, what is between the pilots ears, and when someone is intentionally risking breaking "things" to teach a much needed lesson to better his aviation legacy.

He proved his point by "cheating better"and that ego clouds your judgment. Not that the 14 was better because of some gaming easter egg that few know, or that the 18 is worse, and certainly not that risking breaking the jet was a legitimate or expected practice. To come to the last conclusion is plainly nieve.

 

Captain Snodgrass is a renowned pilot, i think you are doing him a disservice by misrepresenting his experience. Your "argument from authority " is used incorrectly.

 

You sound much like the 18 driver Sondgrass taught the lesson to.

I have no delusions that anyone will be able to convince you what has already been explained, i would simply encourage you to research the "dunning kruger effect".

 

Good luck.


Edited by Lex Talionis
  • Thanks 1

Find us on Discord. https://discord.gg/td9qeqg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...