New to the Fishbed: So many questions:

Perfect landing means your nosewheel doesn't drop imediately on touchdown. This is quite tricky and I just mastered it a few times. If you float over the runway and your wingtips wobble left and right because you try to touchdown very gentle thats a good indicator that you try it the right way.

 

Everybody says for example the F 5 is a breeze to land. Very easy to land yes, not dropping the nose on touchdown is a whole different story.

Yep, this is very true - sadly many tutorials on youtube do not show a proper landing for aircraft like Mig-21/L-39/Su-25. The same goes for take-offs. In a perfect take-off you rotate, roll on the main wheels and gently lift off the aircraft. L-39C is great for practicing this, although it is much harder in the Mig-21. The technique for landing L-39C is the same as for Mig-21 (you need to maintain high engine revs, level out 1 meter above runway, shift your sight to left and touchdown on main gears without letting the nosewheel drop).

That looked PAINFULL. Pop the chute prior to T/D. Thats asking for collapsed gear. You can see how the drag disrupted Mig's approach and it touched on port gear. Maintenance chief, maintenance officer, and squadron CO will probably sit down with the crew.

Touchdown speed 330 km/h and descent rate 2-3 m/s is an acceptable landing in the sim. As per my discussion with real pilots from our airforce, correct parameters would be touchdown speed 260-280 km/h, descent rate lower than 1 m/s, touchdown only on main gears without slamming the front wheel on the runway, aerobrake afterwards. Landings at 3 m/s per second (600 FPM) would more often than not lead to highly increased air-frame fatigue/bending. I've recorded a track which goes mostly by real world numbers/advice when landing the BIS, touchdown at slightly higher speed of 290 km/h to keep AoA below 15 on main wheels and aerobraking.

VERY nicely done. :)

That looked PAINFULL. Pop the chute prior to T/D. Thats asking for collapsed gear. You can see how the drag disrupted Mig's approach and it touched on port gear. Maintenance chief, maintenance officer, and squadron CO will probably sit down with the crew.

That's an actual method utilized by Eastern Bloc nations for short landings. The 21 could handle it, but inspections were required after each landing.

My landings are getting better, but the tires' interaction with the ground is like hitting mud even if I try a greaser. Even with my stick almost full aft, the nose will still (gently) come down immediately when the mains touch down, but if I maintain aft stick the nose will climb back up and I can aerobrake until about 200kph.

Try to have as low rate of descent as possible at wheels contact with tarmac. Flare, but not to much, and support the sink rate with throttle. That's how I do it. Don't be to quick to cut the throttle. You need it longer than you think.

Try to have as low rate of descent as possible at wheels contact with tarmac. Flare, but not to much, and support the sink rate with throttle. That's how I do it. Don't be to quick to cut the throttle. You need it longer than you think.

Emphasis on the bold. Chopping the throttle is a bad idea period in the Fishbed.

Yeah for sure, I don't fully cut the throttle till the wheels are about to touch the tarmac.

This is driving me nuts. Touchdown at 1m/s descent rate, 310-320kph, stick about a quarter aft, nose gear still slammed into the runway. I tried keeping the nose up by maintaining about a quarter aft stick, and went airborne again at 280kph idle throttle. The amount of instantaneous friction when the mains touch isn't making sense to me when compared to aerobraking in other jets.

sr9qHNdiYZc

Yeah, I also have some doubts about this behavior.

Your flare is off. Thats why. You need to coordinate that better with better rudder inputs. You need to force the aircraft to not follow the force downward created by the sudden stop and friction against the tarmac. just keeping the stick in one position is not going to work. You have no fancy computers doing this for you as you have in viggen or mirage or f-18.

You need to fly the aircraft all the time. Not put a stick in one place and the computers give you the rudderinputs needed. You control the rudders. Not a computer.

Its a balancing act done by you and not a computer

I think you should be pleased with that landing. Nice one!

The rudders don't control pitch.....in fact I see nothing wrong with my rudder usage here as I was in a crosswind and took out the crab before touchdown.

The rudders don't control pitch.....in fact I see nothing wrong with my rudder usage here as I was in a crosswind and took out the crab before touchdown.

Rudders in this context is all your flightcontrol surfaces!

You need to constantly move your stick! Not keep it in one place and the flightcomputer gives you desiered inputs. You fly the airplne. Dont keep the stick in one position.!

Have a look at the stick inputs at landing at the end of the movie. Big, aggressiv but with feeling and prescision. What the flightcomputer does for you in the f-18 totaly without you knowing.

Rewatch my video. You can clearly see that none of my controls are "in one place." They are constantly moving. I'm making minute corrections all the way down. Any more stick movement and I would have been wobbling all over the place.

From a quick search on YT:

The aircraft always wants to go nose down after the main wheels and you see the behavior also in the sim, you can force it to keep the nose up but this also will be short.

For this you need very fine adjustment of the stick, throttle and the use of air brakes (specially for touch & goes, this is what I do to keep the rpm higher and the decent rate true to landing config) at the time the main wheels touch and friction creates.

And if you don't know your AoA :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf2UkO6LKr4

Rewatch my video. You can clearly see that none of my controls are "in one place." They are constantly moving. I'm making minute corrections all the way down. Any more stick movement and I would have been wobbling all over the place.

Yes its a nice video and I have no need to watch it again.

You are to gentel and unprecis for the mig-21 and I can tell you are used to fly f-18 or mirage or other airplane with systems to help you fly.

In mig-21 you are on your own

I should show you my Spitfire and Bf109 landings then, and you can criticise me over how "unprescise [sic]" and "gentel [sic]" I am with those as well since apparently I'm just a fly-by-wire n00b

Really guys another flame war?

The landing was on spot, not considering the unnecessary aerobrake attempt .

I just dug up an old video of a former Czechoslovakian Fishbed doing basically what I did, minus the taking off again part. I'm starting to wonder if I should just let the nose come down naturally and then center the stick/give a little forward stick to keep the nose grounded.

From a quick search on YT:

 

 

 

The aircraft always wants to go nose down after the main wheels and you see the behavior also in the sim, you can force it to keep the nose up but this also will be short.

 

 

 

For this you need very fine adjustment of the stick, throttle and the use of air brakes (specially for touch & goes, this is what I do to keep the rpm higher and the decent rate true to landing config) at the time the main wheels touch and friction creates.

 

The first video kind of contradicts your statement, tochdown in real life is smooth while in DCS the nose immediately goes down and the guy raises it again for aerobraking at 0:40 mark.

You can also find other real life videos where pilots keep the nose up high for a few seconds without much apparent effort. No violent pitch down or sudden elevator movements when the mains touch the ground:

https://youtu.be/Ox3mOkAL1eE?t=384

https://youtu.be/0-cEdwgYdAw?t=662

And these behave very differently, even when slammed on the runway (not a bis though).

I should show you my Spitfire and Bf109 landings then, and you can criticise me over how "unprescise [sic]" and "gentel [sic]" I am with those as well since apparently I'm just a fly-by-wire n00b

What. Really?! You really think a ww2 ride is the same as a mig-21? You think a ww2 ride is the same as mig-21.... well, happy hunting man! Really, you need it.... 30 years of aerodynamics, engine power, wing construction etc... (you know the mig-21 is a delta and the bf109 and the spitfire is not, yes?!)

Really sorry if you feel offended. Not my intention!!

Just tried to help.

I am sorry, but still, your stick work for the mig-21 is off. You can be angry, hate me or what ever. Just trying to help!

Its ok......

Stick handling "one o one" in mig-21: Aggressive-precision-results!

The air frame will tell you when its wrong!!

If it doesn't do what you want, you are off...

Sorry to offend you! Not my intention, not at all!!

Prove me wrong!!!

Give me a video where you balance the shit out of the airframe.... because you can! You know how! Agressive-precision-results...

I just dug up an old video of a former Czechoslovakian Fishbed doing basically what I did, minus the taking off again part. I'm starting to wonder if I should just let the nose come down naturally and then center the stick/give a little forward stick to keep the nose grounded.

If you're not breaking the nose gear then yeah.

If there's no wind my control input on landing is fairly minimal tbh. Trim does nearly all the work right up to flare out then release to neutral to bring the nose down.

Sooner the nose is down the sooner I can drop the chute and pull the brakes. Shorter the landing the shorter the taxi back to the start.

This is driving me nuts. Touchdown at 1m/s descent rate, 310-320kph, stick about a quarter aft, nose gear still slammed into the runway. I tried keeping the nose up by maintaining about a quarter aft stick, and went airborne again at 280kph idle throttle. The amount of instantaneous friction when the mains touch isn't making sense to me when compared to aerobraking in other jets.

 

sr9qHNdiYZc

Remember what the Mig 21 controlls feel like if you are in the air and go super slow like 400 km per hour. She does not react well and wobbles a lot. You can pull on the stick pretty hard with almost no reaction due to the slow airflow. At touchdown speed its the same. Key is to pull the stick back, almost full backwards, then you enter the window were you can touch town and the nosewheel stays up. Too much and you scratch the end of the 21. Good luck, it is difficult but rewarding if you mastered it.

One method I've used that's been reasonably successful for me on landing is to treat landing like a VERY low airshow pass. Is this realistic, probably not, but it works. I stabilize a meter or two off the ground, preferably right as I pass the runway threshold. Then I simply roll the throttle back, aiming to keep the nose level, or slightly (a degree or two) up. The mains will touch down, followed by the nose wheel, with little violence. Speed will still be high, but that's what the drag chute and brakes are for. This technique is not for short field landings, or for when you're coming in long. You will end up rolling out most of the runway.

I struggled a little with MiG-21 landings in the beginning

What I did was just take off - orbit the airfield - then come down - repeat

I struggled untill I realized there is a maximum recommended fuel.

When I started to burn some fuel off before attempting to land - it became easy as pie.

Make sure you are not landing on a full tank, and it will be a breeze