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It's not a claim. More like a prediction.

 

With same PC and same settings I lost like 50% of fps over previous 3 major upgrades of the game's graphic engine.

 

And not just fps... cannot even connect to MP server anymore but that's different topic.

 

I recognize a trend here, a pattern so to say, and I can backup my prediction on that basis.

 

I would be more than happy if vulkan give me 75% of performance back, but we all know that's not gonna happen.

 

 

 

Not for many people I know personally. So that's a false claim.

 

The only systems that didnt see an increase are ones that did not meet the minimum, or were setup improperly (running HIGH on a 2GB Entry Level GPU etc)

 

Furthermore, dont post predictions as statements.

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It's not a claim. More like a prediction.

 

With same PC and same settings I lost like 50% of fps over previous 3 major upgrades of the game's graphic engine.

....

 

Thats a funny statement - same PC - same settings - 3 major upgrades - 50% less fps.

 

I would be worried about this statement if DCS was looking exactly the same after these 3 major upgrades, that would indeed be bad. But they increased the graphics and model details alot with this 3 major upgrades, thats what causing your 50% fps loss. The increased graphics wouldn't be able to do with the old DirectX 9 engine.

 

 

Regarding Vulkan:

I have mixed feelings about it. First, congratulations that you chosen Vulkan over DirectX12. Maybe we can see DCS on a Linux System in the far future(yes i know the graphics API is not the only thing you have to change for that). It is a LowLevel API that gives the Dev the possibility to greatly improve the performance of DCS but this is at the same time the disadvantage. It's not the API doing it for you, the Dev has to manually optimize for every GPU family out there or it will run at the same speed as with DirectX11 at best or even slower.

That is the point where i'm not sure if ED has enough manpower with the needed experience to do it.

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It's not a claim. More like a prediction.

 

With same PC and same settings I lost like 50% of fps over previous 3 major upgrades of the game's graphic engine.

 

And not just fps... cannot even connect to MP server anymore but that's different topic.

 

I recognize a trend here, a pattern so to say, and I can backup my prediction on that basis.

 

I would be more than happy if vulkan give me 75% of performance back, but we all know that's not gonna happen.

 

Not for many people I know personally. So that's a false claim.

 

 

But isn't this the same as saying "my program foo ran perfectly fine on Windows XP. But after upgrading to Windows Vista, then Windows 7, and now Windows 10, program foo runs soooooo much slower.

 

 

You can't possibly expect ED to maintain performance over three generations on the same hardware, can you?

 

 

 

Now, having said that, in version 2.x of DCS, the "high, med, low" definitions changed as well. So HIGH in version 2 was more demanding than HIGH in 1.2 or 1.5 versions.

 

 

 

So some of it was reusing the same words to depict a more demanding level of preset, and the other is ....technology keeps evolving and it requires more compute.

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In regards to Vulcan API, will there be an option to run say DirectX 12 as I believe the Vulcan API currently runs slower on NVidia cards. I"m sure this will change in the future, but from benchmarks and articles it seems AMD cards fair better (they developed after all), but I'm worried about a decrease in performance for NVidia hardware.

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The only systems that didnt see an increase are ones that did not meet the minimum, or were setup improperly (running HIGH on a 2GB Entry Level GPU etc)

 

Furthermore, dont post predictions as statements.

 

I have a pretty high end system and I've experience a significant loss in frames as well with major updates. Mainly because MSAA destroys performance. Any solutions on the horizon for this?

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I have a pretty high end system and I've experience a significant loss in frames as well with major updates. Mainly because MSAA destroys performance. Any solutions on the horizon for this?

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I have a pretty high end system and I've experience a significant loss in frames as well with major updates. Mainly because MSAA destroys performance. Any solutions on the horizon for this?

Vulkan API ? :D

Or wait for two generations of GPU to be released :cry:

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The only systems that didnt see an increase are ones that did not meet the minimum, or were setup improperly (running HIGH on a 2GB Entry Level GPU etc)

 

Furthermore, dont post predictions as statements.

 

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I have a pretty high end system and I've experience a significant loss in frames as well with major updates. Mainly because MSAA destroys performance. Any solutions on the horizon for this?

 

Same. I’ve got a titan and 32 gigs of ram and still have issues sometimes. I just live with it because I’ll just be told the missions I fly are to complex or have to many objects. :-|

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Same. I’ve got a titan and 32 gigs of ram and still have issues sometimes. I just live with it because I’ll just be told the missions I fly are to complex or have to many objects. :-|

 

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I have a pretty high end system and I've experience a significant loss in frames as well with major updates. Mainly because MSAA destroys performance. Any solutions on the horizon for this?

 

I'm sure we will get more info and performance benefits as they get closer to release on this.

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This.

 

The issue is CPU when it comes to single player missions. Why multithreading solves some issues, it's hard to do concurrent operations when other operations are dependent on each other. CPU is still a major blocker in a lot of complex sims and games. I was hoping to have 5Ghz processsors by now, but alas they went multi-threaded and reduced thermal output.

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You can easily overclock some CPUs to 5Ghz but unfortunately the physical limits of current silicon based technology seems to be constraining what can be achieved with mass market cooling solutions. There needs to be a step change to get over that 5Ghz barrier for mass market CPUs it seems.

PC specs:

 

 

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overclocking CPU is pointless in low overhead APIs

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overclocking CPU is pointless in low overhead APIs

 

That's not true, there is plenty of stuff running on the CPU (e.g. flight model, the world simulation) which has nothing to do with the graphics API.

 

(I am not arguing for overclocking, only that CPU speed will still be important even with Vulkan)

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Would that not depend upon the other workload that the CPU is running? I.e. if a CPU running at standard clock speeds is heavily utilised, and processes are set to normal priority, then overclocking would benefit the CPU response for all processing.


Edited by bell_rj

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That's not true, there is plenty of stuff running on the CPU (e.g. flight model, the world simulation) which has nothing to do with the graphics API.

 

(I am not arguing for overclocking, only that CPU speed will still be important even with Vulkan)

 

right now w/ DCS Being DirectX11.

 

The Main Benefit of Overclocking is to Process Draw Commands Faster and Feed the GPU Faster and Get Better/Stable FPS.

 

If CPU cannot Process the Commands Smoothly, then you start to have FPS and GPU usage drops.

 

w/ Vulkan, most of the Graphics Commands will go directly to the GPU, so you wont need to Overclock to process commands fluidly.

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Same. I’ve got a titan and 32 gigs of ram and still have issues sometimes. I just live with it because I’ll just be told the missions I fly are to complex or have to many objects. :-|

 

I’ve just rebuilt my high end system, and after discovering I couldn’t overclock >16gb, I removed the other 16gb to get the performance back.

 

Because I upgraded to Windows 10 and Then wiped my C drive, removing legacy apps, memory usage in dcs VR has gone down to 12gb.

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So you're mad at ED because Google, Mozilla and Microsoft don't version their software the way you want?

 

Assumption. No, I simply said I didn't agree with that one little bit, that's quite a far away from madness. ... Maybe some map tech changed so much going forward, because Strait of Hormuz is T5 right now and NTTR being T4 or what, something like that.

 

FYI... there was a very significant graphics engine upgrade between 2.0 and 2.5.

 

AFAIK that was from 1.5 to 2.0 Alpha/Beta, the big changelog ... that's why I don't get the jump from 2.0 to 2.5 because they explained 2.0 and 2.5 will be practically the same except unified maps and an updated Caucus (or not sure if update to caucus was announced back then)

 

I've never heard of that version...

 

Ofcourse, because I'm goofing around.

 

Same. I’ve got a titan and 32 gigs of ram and still have issues sometimes. I just live with it because I’ll just be told the missions I fly are to complex or have to many objects. :-|

 

That's because it's the other way around, given a fast GPU and lots of RAM, you need to look at CPU and VRAM.

 

With HBM Memory, VRAM shouldn't be a problem anytime soon, CPUs are going to remain problematic, even if you pair

 

Single-core CPU speeds are a crisis in the whole indstry, nothing we users can do about it, the whole x86 is a stagnating technology in terms of serial processing, for many years now, most of the media and marketing is hiding this abnomination pretty good from the general public.

 

Either the industry has to change or the some software magic has to happen on the programming end to use multiple cores as much as possible, but I'm afraid the bulk stuff will still have to run on a single core.

 

Overclocking just that single core and tying DCS to use that as the primary one would help a bit, if anyone's into that, overclocking just a single core might be easier on the CPU than overclocking all of the cores (but I have no idea about that in detail)

 

That's not true, there is plenty of stuff running on the CPU (e.g. flight model, the world simulation) which has nothing to do with the graphics API.

 

(I am not arguing for overclocking, only that CPU speed will still be important even with Vulkan)

 

Yes, and it's the GPU API that actually speeds up the CPU. EDIT: Opps, that's was a figure of speach, it doesn't speed it up, it lessens the workload to be accurate.

 

overclocking CPU is pointless in low overhead APIs

 

right now w/ DCS Being DirectX11.

 

The Main Benefit of Overclocking is to Process Draw Commands Faster and Feed the GPU Faster and Get Better/Stable FPS.

 

If CPU cannot Process the Commands Smoothly, then you start to have FPS and GPU usage drops.

 

w/ Vulkan, most of the Graphics Commands will go directly to the GPU, so you wont need to Overclock to process commands fluidly.

 

But what about giving that a second thought, the CPU isn't just doing draw calls, both would help, overclocking and the new API.

 

Ofcourse, in a way you're right, but I'm talking (and probably others too) in the saturated scenario, the max potential, always, not in a free flight low activity one.

 

This only works if the CPU core/thread isn't saturated, you'll get no different FPS, just less CPU load with a newer API and less power consumption, or with an overclock you'd get more headroom, but it won't help FPS if CPU isn't bottlenecking with or without a newer API, in that limited scope scenario, once DCS puts more load on it it'll get saturated, but at a later stage, which means you could have a bit more units/AI/physics calculations going on before you drop frames IMO.

 

Because I upgraded to Windows 10 and Then wiped my C drive

 

Oh, I shiver when I think about that ... That's fine for people who use PCs for only a few things that aren't that important, like gaming, but still these things are notoriously unreliable and buggy, you're better off just doing fresh Win10 next time. This is the kind of stuff that causes weird bugs in games and issues with drivers.


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Oh, I shiver when I think about that ... That's fine for people who use PCs for only a few things that aren't that important, like gaming, but still these things are notoriously unreliable and buggy, you're better off just doing fresh Win10 next time. This is the kind of stuff that causes weird bugs in games and issues with drivers.

 

Ahh - but we aren’t all the same. VR simming is the main reason I built this PC. It is very important to me. Upgrading and wiping the C drive had resolved all my stability issues and improved performance.

 

My point was that you don’t need more than 16gb.

 

Please don’t judge everyone else by your own standards.

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There are so many variables when it comes to computers and performance, for about a month I was having a horrible 10-15 second pause, and only in DCS, I tried everything, I mean EVERYTHING... it ended up being a voltage out of whack on my card, when I ran the EVGA Precision tool for my card and smoothed out the voltage curve, its been as smooth as a babies bottom, and that's a simple 1070.

 

So anything and everything can have an impact on your computer, even things you would never think of, sure DCS will always need love, and moving it forward, and optimizing for new tech and things like Vulcan, but it's not always on DCS either which makes it very tough for a software company to counter every possible configuration or issue out there.

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There are so many variables when it comes to computers and performance, for about a month I was having a horrible 10-15 second pause, and only in DCS, I tried everything, I mean EVERYTHING... it ended up being a voltage out of whack on my card, when I ran the EVGA Precision tool for my card and smoothed out the voltage curve, its been as smooth as a babies bottom, and that's a simple 1070.

 

So anything and everything can have an impact on your computer, even things you would never think of, sure DCS will always need love, and moving it forward, and optimizing for new tech and things like Vulcan, but it's not always on DCS either which makes it very tough for a software company to counter every possible configuration or issue out there.

 

 

Yep, I remember having an issue with Warcraft III back in the day where parts of the orc's armor were missing... never had an issue in any other game. Turns out one of my sticks of ram had like a bad sector or something.

 

 

Computers are just weird sometimes.

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After I watched the two videos Skates posted earlier on the thread, I ran the tests myself.

 

3dMark-API-Test.PNG

 

I don't see any benefit. The draw calls were higher, but the overall FPS didn't improve, in fact it was slightly worse with vulkan. Given the spec of the system I would of expected to see some better FPS. I haven't OC'd anything, but with this level of system I shouldn't have to to see some increase, even small.

 

There was also some anecdotal info that as Vulkan is the OpenGL replacement, its a pure graphics API and doesn't natively support sound or peripherals like DX does.

 

If that correct will that complicate the support of those types of devices for DCS?

 

Maybe evolution to DX12 instead of revolution to Vulkan would be the least path of resistance.

 

I love what ED has done and DCS is unreal, but am not sure that this will be an easy path, nor bring any great improvement.

 

Hopefully this will turn out OK.

 

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