Standalone Kuznetsov

Hi ED,

I know this may look like a weird request, but please let me pay for the Kuznetsov. Add the possibility of buying the Kuznetsov separately, maybe for 5 or 10€. If I remember correctly it's not getting any of the good stuff that the Supercarrier is getting, like the ATC or the deck crew, so why not offer it as Standalone? Like if it was another FC3 module? There's people out there that won't buy the Supercarrier just to get the Kuznetsov, so why forcing these people to go and buy the Supercarrier if they want to have a decent carrier to operate from with their Su-33? I know these people are just a tiny minority but really what's the effort to put another product on your store?

I really think it should be at least offered as an standalone product. It's nice to get both the new Kuznetsov and the Su-33 with the Supercarrier and that may boost the Kuznetsov's usage, but for the people that is already playing the Su-33, it'd be a good gesture to them to make the Kuznetsov also an standalone product.

Please consider it

I fully agree, asking for 50$ when someone just wants to get the Kuznetsov is not a good deal, especially since the Kuznetsov does not have any of the big features of SC.

Not only lacks the red side any support, but now the red players even have to pay for the features exclusive to the blue planes.

I fully agree, asking for 50$ when someone just wants to get the Kuznetsov is not a good deal, especially since the Kuznetsov does not have any of the big features of SC.

 

Not only lacks the red side any support, but now the red players even have to pay for the features exclusive to the blue planes.

Yeah that's kind of outrageous. It'd be nice to see some SC features in the Kuznetsov, at the very least ATC. But I guess we will have to wait for that, or get some official confirmation.

Voted yes, but on the grounds that it got some updated functionality. And another pass on the graphics (I've reported the CIWS graphics - which are pretty darn disappointing).

Also, the thing is currently discounted, and has been so for the past month... The major selling point is the Nimitz, the Kuznetsov is more of a tag along.

Maybe standalone at a very reduced price? If it was in the range of $30 I'd want something more than a graphics overhaul (and about that overhaul, we need to have a talk, the CIWS has already been acknowledged by BIGNEWY, which is great news).

The thing is with making it free is that there's less of an incentive to develop it further and improve fidelity, and fidelity is the one thing that is truly lacking in the naval environment above all else, and the supercarrier only really rectifies realistic carrier ops, there's still an absolute tonne of stuff...

Without hi-fi modules to go with it, I'm less interested in flight deck operations, but definitely a player LSO and airboss station. As for animated crew? I'd just go for the animated static models, but obviously Russian version, the same for the flight deck equipment.

For me though my personal wishlist would be:

• Another pass at the graphics (when it's released on stable, provided nobody has beaten me to it, I'll make another monster post like I did with the Chinese ships a couple of years ago, but I'll do that when/if it comes to it).
• Overhauled graphics for the 9M311, 9M330 and P-700 missiles (the former are passable, but nothing like some of ED's updated weapons, including ED's new RIM-66M and RIM-156 for the Arleigh Burke), and the P-700 is in dire need of a major overhaul as it's still using a LOMAC era model.
• LSO and airboss equivalent stations (at least), plus CA integration.
• Animations for the PK-2 decoy launcher as well as the RBU-12000 (+ reloading). Not saying I'd expect them to be implemented (at least for the time being), but having them at least animated at least gives us some fitted for, but not with capability.
• Functional lifts and hangar, but maybe not as detailed as the one we're getting with the Supercarrier

Later on, and I'd hope to see more improvements to the naval environment such as:

• Enhanced fidelity damage modelling of ships (as opposed to just updated graphical damage, which is still only in predefined locations). I'm talking more about subsystem damage (at least for major components), and ships that sink based on location and severity of damage sustained (so we should ships listing) instead of just the same pre-scripted (and sometimes janky) pitching followed by a big splash...
• Updated ship fire control systems, for instance the 3R95 "Cross Swords" has an independent search/acquisition RADAR (the 4R33 on our current Slava class CG (added 2014), at least has said independent RADARs animated, but non-functional).
• Decoy launchers
• Tactical/Defensive Manoeuvring
• ASW weapons (the RBU-12000).
• A more minor thing is ship dynamics, i.e how they actually "drive" so to speak. By which I mean more realistic representation of ship steering (+ associated rolling), as well as ships that better interact with the waves instead of having pitching and rolling motions randomised with magnitude dependent on wind. There's also heave, sway and surge.
• Finally, underwater modelling, doesn't have to be super fancy, to the level of SH3/Cold Waters would more than suffice, and something to level of SH4 would be absolutely perfect, if not overdoing it.

ive already brought up the model and textures of the new KUZ:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4333291&postcount=23

This is really disappointing first time ive seen the new model up close. So as it looks like this i say no im not paying if it was standalone.

I'm only interested in a high fidelity Kuznetsov if we would get a high fidelity Su-33 or MiG-29K.

Agreed. A fully fledged Kuznetsov with active deck crew, LSO etc as per the upcoming SC, would be a must have for full fidelity Russian aircraft as mentioned above. But to look for it for 10 dollars as the OP has stated, is just farcical when you can currently buy the upcoming SC modules for 25 dollars (50% off). For that you get an upgraded Kuznetsov and the the SC with deck crew et al. I mean such whinging is nonsensical when there are bigger fish to fry like core game features, performance optimization etc. Christ, at this stage I`d gladly pay 50 euro for the doubling of my fps in VR and a state of the art dynamic campaign. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than running out and buying a 2080ti.

I agree the Kuznetsov should be getting the things the Supercarrier is getting. But I also understand ED may not be willing to put the effort for something they don't care about. Seeing the textures on that CIWS pretty much confirms it. I was just putting this as a request to have the updated Kuznetsov in its current state as a separate thing, because right now the whole Supercarrier is discounted, but who knows when will be the next discount. Paying 50 bucks for the Supercarrier if you want just the Kuznetsov is absolutely unreasonable. Having the standalone Kuznetsov, even in its gimped state, would be nice just for giving the choice to red players to actually get the ship without having to buy the whole package. I also agree having to pay for such a "minor" update feels wrong. The Hornet players got a free revamped CV when the Hornet dropped. I don't know how bad was the old model, but I'd hope to see this being done with red players too. Seeing that there's no russian carrier plane in the works (that we know of), just giving it to the players would be a nice gesture. However ED has put their work on this and I don't think they ever said the Su-33 would get a nice looking carrier down the line, so they are kind of in their right to charge us for it.

Looking at those CIWS textures...that's disappointing. I hope the weapons work, at least.

Maybe ED can put it in a special bundle with the SU-33 for the Reds among us.

I'm only interested in a high fidelity Kuznetsov if we would get a high fidelity Su-33 or MiG-29K.

+1

Maybe ED should have a look at the poll.

At the moment of writting this, the poll has a:

42,42% for YES

27,27% for NO

30,30% for NO, SHOULD BE FREE

So... 72,72% of the people that answered the poll says that the Kuznetzov from 2017 shouldn't be part of the Supercarrier.

I know, that getting for free something is impossible, so I'm not going to ask for it, I just will ask for having a little bit of common sense, and add a Kuznetzov Standalone, for a reduced price (10-15€ maybe?), not only because we will be adquiring only the Kuznetzov, but because the Kuznetzov has less details, like, deck crew and more stuff.

ED, please PLEASE, add the Kuznetzov as a Standalone, PLEASE. There are peple that would like to use the Su33 in his Kuznetzov.

I expect someone on ED will eventually read this, so... yeah, fingers crossed.

It think it should be part of owning the Su-33 (and also part of FC3 as a result). As a SC owner I'm still baffled that it is included, I don't think its neccesary as it already offers plenty, and this essentially gatekeeps a nice single carrier behind a large price tag for people not interested in the US carrier experience.

Maybe ED should have a look at the poll.

 

At the moment of writting this, the poll has a:

 

42,42% for YES

27,27% for NO

30,30% for NO, SHOULD BE FREE

 

So... 72,72% of the people that answered the poll says that the Kuznetzov from 2017 shouldn't be part of the Supercarrier.

 

I know, that getting for free something is impossible, so I'm not going to ask for it, I just will ask for having a little bit of common sense, and add a Kuznetzov Standalone, for a reduced price (10-15€ maybe?), not only because we will be adquiring only the Kuznetzov, but because the Kuznetzov has less details, like, deck crew and more stuff.

 

ED, please PLEASE, add the Kuznetzov as a Standalone, PLEASE. There are peple that would like to use the Su33 in his Kuznetzov.

 

I expect someone on ED will eventually read this, so... yeah, fingers crossed.

Maybe the Kuznetsov can remain in the Supercarrier package. I'd just like to see it available outside too, like the standalone FC3 planes.

It's another option, I think that that can work too

Okay I know this thread is kinda dead, but I asked Bignewy about this over the Discord server, and he replied that there weren't any plans on making the Kuznetsov available separately in any way. That ED may consider it in the future but that currently, it's a clear no. Not exactly his words but that's basically it. I thought people would like to know.

I get tired of those "paid"modules. I understand that ED needs money, like every other company but I cant agree with their EA politics=we pay for module X, they get the money and after that there are a loooong waiting (2-3-4 years) for us to get a final product.

I voted "yes" only because, if I were into Russian naval aviation as much as I am into US naval aviation, I'd be more than happy to pay for a Kuznetsov that was equal to the SC in terms of features like the LSO station, functioning elevators, JBD's, arresting gear animation, lighting and all the rest that is slated to come out eventually. That would be a fair deal as far as I am concerned. However as it is right now, I would not be willing to pay additional money for the graphics improvement alone.

i vote yes for kuz carrier high details , another addon module package would be nice.

On 5/16/2020 at 7:52 PM, QuiGon said:

I'm only interested in a high fidelity Kuznetsov if we would get a high fidelity Su-33 or MiG-29K.

BINGO!! Same here, although I would prefer a high fidelity MIG-29K just so that it'll be the equal of the F/A-18C in DCS. I miss flying the MiG-29K in Flanker 2.5.

I think that it should be given its own ATC system, at least. I don't know if Russian carrier procedures are public, but if they are, ED should implement them. 

Perhaps they will reconsider it if either the Su-33 or the MiG-29K becomes a high fidelity module. Unfortunately, the Russian government seems reluctant towards that idea.

On 5/16/2020 at 8:31 AM, Northstar98 said:

Voted yes, but on the grounds that it got some updated functionality. And another pass on the graphics (I've reported the CIWS graphics - which are pretty darn disappointing).

 

Also, the thing is currently discounted, and has been so for the past month... The major selling point is the Nimitz, the Kuznetsov is more of a tag along.

 

Maybe standalone at a very reduced price? If it was in the range of $30 I'd want something more than a graphics overhaul (and about that overhaul, we need to have a talk, the CIWS has already been acknowledged by BIGNEWY, which is great news).

 

The thing is with making it free is that there's less of an incentive to develop it further and improve fidelity, and fidelity is the one thing that is truly lacking in the naval environment above all else, and the supercarrier only really rectifies realistic carrier ops, there's still an absolute tonne of stuff...

 

Without hi-fi modules to go with it, I'm less interested in flight deck operations, but definitely a player LSO and airboss station. As for animated crew? I'd just go for the animated static models, but obviously Russian version, the same for the flight deck equipment.

 

For me though my personal wishlist would be:

 

 

• Another pass at the graphics (when it's released on stable, provided nobody has beaten me to it, I'll make another monster post like I did with the Chinese ships a couple of years ago, but I'll do that when/if it comes to it).
• Overhauled graphics for the 9M311, 9M330 and P-700 missiles (the former are passable, but nothing like some of ED's updated weapons, including ED's new RIM-66M and RIM-156 for the Arleigh Burke), and the P-700 is in dire need of a major overhaul as it's still using a LOMAC era model.
• LSO and airboss equivalent stations (at least), plus CA integration.
• Animations for the PK-2 decoy launcher as well as the RBU-12000 (+ reloading). Not saying I'd expect them to be implemented (at least for the time being), but having them at least animated at least gives us some fitted for, but not with capability.
• Functional lifts and hangar, but maybe not as detailed as the one we're getting with the Supercarrier.

 

 

Later on, and I'd hope to see more improvements to the naval environment such as:

 

• Enhanced fidelity damage modelling of ships (as opposed to just updated graphical damage, which is still only in predefined locations). I'm talking more about subsystem damage (at least for major components), and ships that sink based on location and severity of damage sustained (so we should ships listing) instead of just the same pre-scripted (and sometimes janky) pitching followed by a big splash...
• Updated ship fire control systems, for instance the 3R95 "Cross Swords" has an independent search/acquisition RADAR (the 4R33 on our current Slava class CG (added 2014), at least has said independent RADARs animated, but non-functional).
• Decoy launchers
• Tactical/Defensive Manoeuvring
• ASW weapons (the RBU-12000).
• A more minor thing is ship dynamics, i.e how they actually "drive" so to speak. By which I mean more realistic representation of ship steering (+ associated rolling), as well as ships that better interact with the waves instead of having pitching and rolling motions randomised with magnitude dependent on wind. There's also heave, sway and surge.
• Finally, underwater modelling, doesn't have to be super fancy, to the level of SH3/Cold Waters would more than suffice, and something to level of SH4 would be absolutely perfect, if not overdoing it.

 

 

A few questions about the current AK in OB v2.7.3, and thanks in advance:

• Does it have a realistic damage model?  For example, what degrades the integral air defenses...it seems to have a never-ending supply of SAMs.
  • Also, it only seems to show some damage (smoke/fire) from Harpoons, but nothing else if hit with gravity weapons, beyond the weapon's explosion.
• How do you put static aircraft on the deck?

On 7/14/2021 at 12:36 PM, Dawgboy said:

A few questions about the current AK in OB v2.7.3, and thanks in advance:

• Does it have a realistic damage model?  For example, what degrades the integral air defenses...it seems to have a never-ending supply of SAMs.

According to the CV_1143_5.lua file in CoreMods -> tech -> Kuznecow -> Database -> Navy, the Kuznetsov does have its damage model split up into zones, however, the only components that can be damaged by weapons fire are the CIWS systems (consisting of the 8 Kortik/Kortik-M, and 6 AK630s - each have their own zone), and the 3R95 [NATO: "Cross Swords"] fire control RADARs (these are on the 4 corners of the superstructure). These RADARs are the fire-control RADARs for the 3K95 "Kinzhal" [NATO: SA-N-9 "Gauntlet"] SAM system (essentially a navalised 9K330 "Tor" [NATO: SA-15 "Gauntlet"]), and as such, destroying them should disable the system. The launchers themselves however cannot be independently damaged

There are additionally 3 zones defining the forward, mid and aft sections of the deck - presumably these will disable air operations.

The rest of the damage zones are eye candy only, they are only there to play an animation argument (to show holes for instance), and fire and smoke for certain zones.

The zones are attached to an area on the model, and has an "area_life" attached to it, which works like a health-bar.

I've attached the section of the .lua that has the damage model defined in the spoiler below.

GT.DM = {
    { area_name = "Collision_70", 				area_arg = 70, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_70", size = 0.5}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_71", 				area_arg = 71, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_71", size = 0.3}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_72", 				area_arg = 72, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_72", size = 0.5}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_73", 				area_arg = 73, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_73", size = 0.3}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_74", 				area_arg = 74, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_74", size = 0.2}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_75", 				area_arg = 75, area_life = 150, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_75_2", size = 0.3}},
	{ area_name = "Collision_PALUBA_76", 				area_arg = 76, area_life = 100, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_76", size = 0.5}, belongsToRunway = true}, -- deck front
	{ area_name = "Collision_PALUBA_77", 				area_arg = 77, area_life = 100, belongsToRunway = true}, -- deck middle
	{ area_name = "Collision_PALUBA_78", 				area_arg = 78, area_life = 100, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_78", size = 0.4}, belongsToRunway = true}, -- deck back
	{ area_name = "Collision_79", 				area_arg = 79, area_life = 150}, -- back
	{ area_name = "Collision_80", 				area_arg = 80, area_life = 100}, -- tower front right
	{ area_name = "Collision_81", 				area_arg = 81, area_life = 100, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_81", size = 0.3}}, -- tower middle right
	{ area_name = "Collision_82", 				area_arg = 82, area_life = 100}, -- tower back right
	{ area_name = "Collision_83", 				area_arg = 83, area_life = 100}, -- tower front left
	{ area_name = "Collision_84", 				area_arg = 84, area_life = 100, area_fire = { connector = "FIRE_POS_84", size = 0.4}}, -- tower middle left
	{ area_name = "Collision_85", 				area_arg = 85, area_life = 100}, -- tower back left
	{ area_name = "Collision_91", 				area_arg = 91, area_life = 8}, -- klinok radar front right CENTER_RADAR_07
	{ area_name = "Collision_92", 				area_arg = 92, area_life = 8}, -- klinok radar front left CENTER_RADAR_08
	{ area_name = "Collision_93", 				area_arg = 93, area_life = 8}, -- klinok radar back right CENTER_RADAR_09
	{ area_name = "Collision_94", 				area_arg = 94, area_life = 8}, -- klinok radar back left CENTER_RADAR_10
	{ area_name = "Collision_99", 				area_arg = 99, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_01
	{ area_name = "Collision_100", 				area_arg = 100, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_02
	{ area_name = "Collision_101", 				area_arg = 101, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_05
	{ area_name = "Collision_102", 				area_arg = 102, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_06
	{ area_name = "Collision_103", 				area_arg = 103, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_03
	{ area_name = "Collision_104", 				area_arg = 104, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_04
	{ area_name = "Collision_105", 				area_arg = 105, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_07
	{ area_name = "Collision_106", 				area_arg = 106, area_life = 8}, -- kortik_08
	{ area_name = "Collision_107", 				area_arg = 107, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_01
	{ area_name = "Collision_108", 				area_arg = 108, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_02
	{ area_name = "Collision_109", 				area_arg = 109, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_03
	{ area_name = "Collision_110", 				area_arg = 110, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_04
	{ area_name = "Collision_111", 				area_arg = 111, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_05
	{ area_name = "Collision_112", 				area_arg = 112, area_life = 6}, -- AK-630_06
}

Just a FYI here, the Kinzhal system has 4 banks, each containing 6 revolver style launchers, each in turn with 8 missiles, for a total of 192 missiles.

Each Kortik/Kortik-M CIWS has 32 missiles per system, with 8 ready to fire at any one time. There are 8 Kortik CIWS installed, so that's a total of 256 9M311-1 missiles. Unfortunately the magazine or the reloading system isn't animated at all.

In general though no ship in DCS has a realistic damage model, what we have above is about as good as it gets, with only weapons and their associated FC RADARs having individual zones, there's still plenty that are missing (though plenty of the components don't exist at all). There's also no buoyancy/flooding model. No fire-propagation or damage control etc.

On 7/14/2021 at 12:36 PM, Dawgboy said:

• Also, it only seems to show some damage (smoke/fire) from Harpoons, but nothing else if hit with gravity weapons, beyond the weapon's explosion.

Not sure why that is - any weapon that lands on one of the zones defined above that has fire and smoke attached to it should cause a fire + smoke. If you could provide a short track I'm happy to take a look.

On 7/14/2021 at 12:36 PM, Dawgboy said:

• How do you put static aircraft on the deck?

Very easy.

Go into static objects (looks like a bridge), change the category to "aircraft", find the aircraft you want, place it where you want on the deck. You then need to go into the "link unit" drop down menu, and find the unit name of the ship you want to place it on (otherwise it won't spawn in the right place, nor will it stay on the deck).

Here's a timestamped video showing the procedure (if the timestamp doesn't work 8:26 is the time you're after):

Let me know if you need anything else.  

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Just a FYI here, the Kinzhal system has 4 banks, each containing 6 revolver style launchers, each in turn with 8 missiles, for a total of 192 missiles.

 

Each Kortik/Kortik-M CIWS has 32 missiles per system, with 8 ready to fire. There are 8 Kortik CIWS installed, so that's a total of 256 9M311-1 missiles.

Yup exactly - good knowledge there Northstar :)

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Unfortunately the magazine or the reloading system isn't animated at all.

No and it isn't just a reloading system - the missile canisters are usually not loaded onto the combat modules until needed and are off-loaded again(returned to the magazine) when the system returns to inactive state.

On 7/14/2021 at 6:24 PM, Seaeagle said:

Yup exactly - good knowledge there Northstar

Thanks!

On 7/14/2021 at 6:24 PM, Seaeagle said:

No and it isn't just a reloading system - the missile canisters are usually not loaded onto the combat modules until needed and are off-loaded again(returned to the magazine) when the system returns to inactive state.

Sounds about right - I would've thought the rail launchers (such as the Mk13 GMLS) would've behaved the same way.

Then again basically everything regarding naval is kinda lacking in some aspect. 

Seems like the 2017 Kuznetsov is roughly Stennis (non SC) caliber modeling and should be part of the baseline sim. The original Kuznetsov and the very outdated Carl Vinson reflect poorly on the rest of the great work being done in DCS and should probably be deprecated/pulled.

I would definitely pay for a Supercarrier level Kuznetsov (Russian crew, martialing, gse and comms), but that would need to come alongside a full fidelity red air carrier aircraft.