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Wing breaking in hard turns, seriously?


D4n

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Do we know if it's realistic, that if AV-8B pilot inputs too sudden pitch up at somewhere around Mach 0.7 with 4 AGM and 2 AIM9 equipped, a wing will break off?

I doubt that McDonnell Douglas wouldn't make the airframe strong enough for maneuvers AND/OR not limit pilot input by flight computer to cause too much stress on the wings...

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Could you give us a track ? I've not been able to reproduce, pulling as hard as I can flying at mach 0.7 with 2*AIM9s, 4*AGM-65Gs, a gunpod and full fuel.

 

Also, in the pocket guide that you didn't read, there is a handy chart telling you that, if you pull more the 6G in a Harrier that weights 28000lbs and is flying with a symmetrical loadout, you are outside the acceleration limitations. At mach 0.7 depending on the maneuver you should be fine, I tested it and was hitting 5Gs, but any faster and yes your wings should snap.

 

Page 35 of the pocket guide, knock yourself out, read it :).


Edited by Rex854Warrior

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At mach 0.7 depending on the maneuver you should be fine, I tested it and was hitting almost 5Gs, but any faster and yes your wings should snap.

.

 

and yes the airframe may get damaged , and see its service life time severely reduced

 

in some case, the plane would not be allowed to fly again

 

 

 

has there been any account of wings snapping off due to - controlled - Over-G ?

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has there been any account of wings snapping off due to - controlled - Over-G ?

 

Have been messing with it for about 20 minutes and I couldn't get the wings to snap even after overloading (0 to +6-7Gs) the wings several times in a row even with a GWT over 30000lbs. If you go over the negative G limitation though the wings snap almost immediatly.

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The AV-8B N/A was never designed to be a hard turn fighter, let alone while fully loaded. As explained the info on its limits can be found in the manual.

 

 

Every aircraft ever made has specific limits, that will lead to complete catastrophic failure of its air-frame components and finally the AV8B is NOT a FBW (fly by wire) design so it cannot limit pilot control.

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Not fly by wire? So there are real cables from cockpit to control surfaces? O___O

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Isn't that FBW, an electronic signal through a cable controls the hydraulic valves at the control surfaces? Or does FBW only reference that a computer receives pilot input and then the computer itself controls the surfaces?

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Isn't that FBW, an electronic signal through a cable controls the hydraulic valves at the control surfaces? Or does FBW only reference that a computer receives pilot input and then the computer itself controls the surfaces?

Correct. In a FBW craft when you pull the stick you aren't even telling the computer to move the elevators x degrees, you're telling it to give me x percent of the currently allowable pitch rate and then the computer moves the elevators to a deflection to produce that rate.

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So there's even already an new level, after FBW that even more modern combat aircraft use? (where the computer calculates, like Eurofighter I think)

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Yeap FBW means the imput of the pilot goes to a Flight control computer and it moves the surfaces to replicate what the pilot wants to do.

 

Hydraulics only replicate imputs from the pilot and even provide feedback. the sistem is as old as comertial aviation ;)

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Ok well I thought there is FBW, and there is "advanced FBW" or so (or "secure FBW" if that already has a name?) where the computer checks which forces on the wings the current airspeed+weapons-load allows (and thus limits hard turns to only 6, 7 or 8 g ) :P

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edited.

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Just because there's FBW on an aircraft it doesn't mean it's programmed to stop you from over controlling.

 

And there's no FBW and advanced FBW, just FBW which means there's no direct connection from pilot input to the control surfaces.

 

As for wings snapping, the 6g limit is the official safe limit. You typically get at least 30% more g capability.

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Still, it remains, RAZBAM didn't model that McDonnell Douglas most probably built in a g limiter into AV-8B...

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I've had that happen a few times. In all those times, it was during AA combat and I was VIFFING at high G 6+. So I am in a turn with half rudder deflection and 60 deg. bank. To Tighten turn radius and increase turn rate I'd VIFF nozzles to 85-90 deg.at full or combat power. Perhaps I pulled a bit more G's then. Then , all of a sudden, a bang inside cockpit, and world starts spinning at unbeleivable rates. Quick switch to external F2 or F4 view shows a missing wing , engine on fire, and gout of flame coming out of hot nozzles. So its ejection time.

In all three cases I was either clean or had 1 AIM-9M per wing, gunpod, and 2500-2700 TOT fuel. No pods, no tanks, no AG stores.

I figured I'd over-G the airframe. I had similar breakups years ago when learning A-10C, and I'd pull 6+ after AG bomb release.

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"VIFF" ? And do you know for sure that A-10C didn't at some point get upgrade to prevent over g?

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Do you know that or are you assuming?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Assuming ofc. If I were real Harrier Pilot I'd brag about it in my signature I guess xD

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It is apparently available as an option, but I do not know if this applies to the N/A.

 

 

11.4.1.3 G Limited Aircraft

At tactical airspeeds below 5,000 feet the aircraft becomes g limited. Although it is possible to induce an “AOA”

or “IMN” departure at these low altitudes, the inherent stability of the aircraft due to the high dynamic pressure and

the low IMN at tactical airspeeds, make it more tolerant to all but themost gross pilot control input errors. Therefore,

mishandling the aircraft will likely lead to an overstress instead of a departure.

 

 

The term "tactical airspeed" isn't defined, but the phrase "the low IMN [indicated mach number] at tactical airspeeds" suggests that it is a lot lower than the Mach 0,7 described by the OP, so the G-limiter, if it was present, wouldn't do anything in those conditions.


Edited by drPhibes
removed manual screenshot as per rule 1.16
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"induce a departure" ? Where did you get that part from?

 

And yes (to authors of last post on previous page), the point of this thread is to either get a Razbam official to state where their information for snapping wing comes from or even a real (former) pilot or (former) McDonnell Douglas representative.

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Ok, now I just need to knownthe gross weight fully refueled + 4x AGM-65 + 2x Aim 9. Still, when Harrier was equipped with AIM-9, McDonnell didn't expect it to possibly also be forced into dogfights? I wonder how their AV-8B simulator deals with over G (related to wings snapping) or if there already is an audio warning when pulling over the aircraft's stress limit.

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It is apparently available as an option, but I do not know if this applies to the N/A.

 

 

"The aircraft becomes G limited" only means that maneuvering is limited by max allowable G instead of angle of attack, not that there is a built in G limiter.

 

The main source of over G protection comes from the Q-feel system which increases stick forces with airspeed and a bobweight to increase stick forces with G.

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