source files release

Question to M3: would you consider releasing the necessary files so that the community could fix the bugs, implement what's missing and release a finished version of the MiG-21 finally? Maybe as a mod, in a similar way as the community A-4 or MB-339?

I don't mean to be provocative, it's an honest question.

The MiG-21 is the oldest DCS module, I realize you're probably not gonna make much progress and it is probably not bringing in any amount of money substantial enough for you to hire a programmer and invest in finishing it.

On the other hand, there are a lot of talented people who could help make the MiG-21 better, for the sake of those who bought it and supported its development, and for the community as a whole.

I am thinking, what does M3 have to lose from this? If anything, the community would love you for it.

Just a thought.

We’re already getting a new cockpit and gunsight

... I don't mean to be provocative, it's an honest question.

Yeah, I know that the question is meant for M3, but I find it rude rather than honest.

The MiG-21 is the oldest DCS module ...

It's not, the first was the A-10C and tough the BS2 and FC3 are derived from older products, they came to DCS after the 10C and before the MiG-21.

I am thinking, what does M3 have to lose from this?

Their intellectual property?

By the way, my MiG-21 does work perfectly well.

Like Rudel_chw said, I'm not sure whats honest behind such plea...

In any event, release of the of the source code is not going to happen ever. It is not only part of Company's intellectual property but first and foremost would be a breach of our agreement as a 3rd Party. Due to the nature of the product and all security measures implemented by Eagle Dynamics, editing of some files would be futile anyway.

By the way, my MiG-21 does work perfectly well.

:crazy:

Love is blind

Yeah, I know that the question is meant for M3, but I find it rude rather than honest.

Honest questions can sometimes be rude.

It's not, the first was the A-10C and tough the BS2 and FC3 are derived from older products, they came to DCS after the 10C and before the MiG-21.

It is the first 3rd party module.

 

By the way, my MiG-21 does work perfectly well.

Where can I download your version of the MiG-21? Mine has had a number of unresovled bugs for the past 4-5 years :music_whistling:

@Hiromachi, thanks for the answer. This means unless you plan to fix all the bugs and correct what's not working as intended (e.g. the rwr) - and provided you are able to do so -, the MiG-21 will forever be a half finished job. It is your IP, no doubt about that, but in a way it seems a bit like when you own an old house that you have no time/money/skills to maintain.

On that note, is there a road map for fixing the bugs or do you call the MiG-21 finished except for some re-texturing and touching up the 3d models?

And if the rwr was “fixed” what would be the first issue you would fix with the source code?

And if the rwr was “fixed” what would be the first issue you would fix with the source code?

The SAU stabilization mode.

You have to realize the module is 5 years old by now. Sporadically updated by a very small team on evenings and weekends. It will slowly deteriorate over time as DCS World continues to update and develop. Almost everything (like games) has a shelf life and MiG-21bis is no different. ED products are a bit different as they have the resources needed to keep their modules up to date as time moves on. But supporting old modules is a difficult task that all 3rd party developers will have to face at some point.

I have got some of the best DCS times in the MiG-21bis :) It was the module that got me really hooked on DCS. While I would like to see it in a better state, with long hinted cockpit and rwr updates, I also realize that any progress will be slow or might not arrive at all.

There will be progress and updates. We've said time and time again that support will not be dropped for it. Rudel is working on cockpit and external fixes around the clock, I can assure you of that since I bother him every evening about that on comms :)

Okay corn332 what is wrong with SAU stabilization? The manual says there will be altitude loss when first engaging it

Edit: looked it up guess it’s not very clear, there’s also a note about recovery mode being “blunt,” but there is this in the SAU section “30. It is allowed to fly with the AFCS engaged in RECOVERY mode, for stabilization of heading and altitude, at altitudes not lower than 100 m over ground relief.”

I understand how that might be read as simple caution, but I always meant it to mean “altitude loss up to 100 meters so be careful at low altitude,” that part is in system limitations pg 38

There will be progress and updates. We've said time and time again that support will not be dropped for it. Rudel is working on cockpit and external fixes around the clock, I can assure you of that since I bother him every evening about that on comms :)

As I've said many times, you guys are doing well (very, very well) in the art department. What's missing is coding. It's great that you update the textures etc, but really, that doesn't fix bugs with the systems, it doesn't make the FM less "on rails" or the engine behavior less scripted. It doesn't fix the damage model. THese are the fixes we need, art is fine.

I'm sorry but despite seeing for over two decades descriptions like "on rails" or "scripted" I still don't understand their meaning in such context. Could you define phrase on rails ?

Quite frankly, of the two of us, neither has actually flown MiG-21bis. Dolphin who made the FM however did and is still active duty pilot, albeit flying now on MiG-29.

I know that it was pointed for instance that stall and spin lack in "feeling" department but having researched that, I went to Central Military Library in Warsaw and studied Flying Characteristics manual for the bis, where I have found nothing on stalls. Nothing except for single sentence that stalls and spins are strictly prohibited. So the only people who know how it might behave are those who either tested 21 in 60s or 70s or flew it.

As for the damage model. We await the moment ED releases updated damage models. Perhaps with an insight into their making we will be able to improve MiG-21.

Also, our second coder is working on CE2 issue with pilots head. Once done with it, he mentioned desire to release updates to the SPO. Once this will get close to happening, I will make a separate post since some testing will be necessary so we will ask for help.

On top of what's been said already, outsourcing coding to random people who may or may not be competent at it is definitely not the way to solve things, quite the contrary. Imagine forcing M3 to review each and every commit by whoever, while making sure said commits done by people who have access to the Mig's code but not the SDK do not break other stuf...

SPO:chef:

SPO :worthy: ok now we can wait, Thanks

Please have a look to the groundpower ac/dc + inverter and ASP check procedure. The check is only possible with running engine and the RL manual teach me other.

And if possible maybe is there a way to shut down the gear lock lights if the battery and all other ac/dc is off. The landing lights in the in position are not off and lights to the ground. And the jammer pod need a bit love too.

Every hour in the MiG is a dream and only small bugs left but the light and SPO kill some feeling. Thanks a lot for this bird.

Bother Rudel with lights :)

As for jammer. I managed to obtain complete documentation on its operation. Unfortunately DCS implementation of ecm is not giving us room to do much with it. But it sure is cool reading something one has no idea about :)

what is wrong with SAU stabilization?

Last time I checked, it does nothing. Don't confuse RECOVERY mode (the button on the stick) with the STABILIZATION mode, which is a button on the SAU control panel.

Stabilization has always worked for me. It makes it much harder for precise flying, like gun tracking, and will stay in the attitude you put it. But I don’t think it’s meant to handle the imbalance of a KH-66:) Our variant of MiG-21 didn’t even use the KH-66! It’s like a 3 axis dampening gyro system, great for cruise, horrible for landing!

Turn it off and on and look at your control surfaces, the elevator will move different, slower to react, especially if you try to jerk it around

-deleted-

SPO SPO SPO Woohoo!!!! Woohoo!!! Thank you!!! Looking forward to it :)

Stabilization has always worked for me.

It has never worked for you. Imagine only having one missile, set 11 degrees of bank, 3 degrees of pitch, and letting go of the stick. With stabilization the airplane will continue that bank and pitch foreverish as long as speed allows.

Which missile? I’m not sure I perfectly understand you, it is supposed to try to maintain bank and pitch at that bank angle in the right conditions. It is stated in the manual it uses trim, but how is this accomplished with aileron? I would assume the hydraulic booster, but i would think it couldn’t have the power to fight any asymmetry. The manual states also it is filtering your inputs, so how much authority is that if you let go of the stick?

I am away from my computer for a while so I can’t verify roll behavior, but it certainly does have an effect with pitch input

Either missile. The minor roll input needed to counter asymmetric missile load is well within SAU's roll authority. It's the same authority for self-leveling mode which easily rotates the bank through 180 degrees within 6 seconds. Does self-leveling mode struggle with asymmetric loading or not?

The manual says "if stick is relieved of forces using trim" i.e. before SAU tries to act it is best if stick forces are trimmed away. That does not say that SAU acts on the airplane by way of the trim system. After all there is no pilot roll trim and yet SAU does act on the roll control surfaces.

There are force sensors on the flight stick which disengage attitude hold when pilot applied force exceeds 1.1 kgf lateral and 1.8 kgf in pitch (+-0.1). That is the trigger for new pitch and bank attitude (heading instead of roll if bank is <6deg) values to be captured. The channels are independent so it's possible to have pitch on and bank off if only lateral stick force exceeds threshold.

The simple fact is that SAU stab. should manage to maintain simple attitude holding and it's not even trying. Something like a constant 30 degree banked turn at constant attitude should be easy to set up hands off.

FWIW, in my cursory testing, STABILZATION mode will not compensate for an asymetrical load. For that matter, nor will RECOVERY mode completely negate the effects. How much of this has to do with the lack of a roll trim function in the aircraft, I don't know.

I also noticed that, while according to the manual, STABILZATION mode is supposed to control for both pitch and heading when the bank is less than 6° (I may be wrong on the exact number of degrees), it does not. It will hold the lesser bank angle rather than moving to a zero bank angle and you will continue a slow turn. But that's another issue.