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Can someone explain the armor model of vehicles ?


Shadow KT

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I am confused about the damage models, especially on tanks...

 

I've been testing all the modern MBTs against each other and I have noticed that vehicles have weak points and it does matter where you hit them, but....

 

There are some tanks (lets say tank A) that can penetrate one type of tank(tank B), but can't penetrate tank C....

 

and then you get another tank(tank D) which can't penetrate tank B, but can penetrate tank C...

 

Some tanks complete protect against one type of AP shell, but you hit it with an HE and dies...

 

I've had tanks which require two AP shots to kill from the side, but need only one HE

 

I've had times where you hit a tank once with AP or HE and it doesn't take damage, but then you repeat the shot in the same spot with the same type of ammo and it is an instant kill

 

For exmaple, the Abrams is super survivable .... it can always tank one ATGMs from the T-90, even in the side and the back (TOW does no damage to the front, unless you hit a weak spot).

 

I've had an AP shell which only did 1/5 damage....

 

The T-90 for the post part is super weak, ATGM doesn't kill from the front and almost everything one shots it from the front in return.... don't even bother with AP, because it might bounce, if you are lucky.... but HE insta kill (I realize that it is HEAT, but most MBTs should have most protection against chemical)

 

Most MBTs can probably survive a frontal ATGM as well, but side shots ?

 

It feels like there are different weak spots, there is maybe also chemical protection simulated on some of those, as in maybe it can take one HEAT shell to a panel and then it starts taking damage if you hit it again there.

 

Can a developer shine some light on all this ?

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Shadow KT said:
Can a developer shine some light on all this ?

Hull armour,

DCSW-装甲模型.png

... Turret armour is similar.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3117868#post3117868


Edited by Ramsay
Fix broken image link

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Ground vehicles use hitpoints more or less, they're not extensively modeled. At a glance I'd say they're multipliers to a base 'armor value'. Large penalty to the top, big buff from head on, base value across angled headon, etc. Same for the top view, buff in a narrow cone head on, penalties to the rear and side.

 

Same basic system Homeworld used, tbh.

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Don't know.... tanks are definitely not the same, there are definitely weak spots... for example, you can't penetrate an M2A2 with the 30mm from BMPs (frontally), as seen in sources where it says that model received an armor upgrade, making able to shrug off 30mm (except one weak spot on the front).

 

There times where front shots are one hit, but side shot is a 2 hit....

 

Even if the system is that basic, there seems to be some thought put to it and how it works

 

Had couple of engagements where shooting the same spot from the same angle gave different results, as well as times, where a shot will penetrate, but for some reason do a lot less damage....

 

Russian tanks really do need a buff tho :lol: and Abrams doesn't take HE damage from the front


Edited by Shadow KT

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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In the code there are two main informations :

 

ARMOR :

 

- For basic tank/APC/IFV : One single value is set (say 0.2 m), the sim will then calculate the average value depending on the side you're shooting, using at the same time an angle calculation (very approximative) in order to tweak the pen value depending on the global angle of impact (the angle formed between the shell and the vertical axis, not the plate itself).

 

- For advanced tanks : M1 Abrams, FrenchPack AMX-10RCR, FrenchPack Leclerc XXI : Complex armor scheme : The collision model is divided in plates with each plate being set to its real value (Example : Leclerc XXI Left turret cheek : 750 mm RHA). Then add to this the angle calculation which too is specific to each advanced vehicle, instead of the generic calculation system which is used for every other. This allows you to get as detailed armor scheme as in other advanced tank games, but again, in base DCS, only one vehicle is concerned, the M1 Abrams, others use the basic armor scheme.

 

 

SHELL :

 

- The shell itself has several parameters : For perforation : Its mass, its speed, its caliber, its sub-caliber. The last one is the most important as it defines the main parameter for penetration value, the lower it is, the more is penetrates. (At equal mass and speed, a 10 mm in diameter dart will pierce more than a 30 mm.

 

 

Each tank has its proper shell model, so an Abrams shell is not the same at all than a T-72 shell which too differs from a FrenchPack Leclerc XXI shell.

 

 

 

At the end of all this calculation, you obtain the observed result that you described earlier.

 

By experience though, the complex scheme is not entirely reliable and sometimes works badly, probably due to limits in code calculation because of the shell very high speed (about 1.5 to 1.8 km/sec).

 

Finally, there is no HEAT amunnition in DCS, only High Explosive and APDSFS, which means that your tank should not be too much damaged by an explosive shell, at least it shouldn't blow it up.

 

The real lacking thing in DCS tank battle is the perforation effect depending on the part which is hit : engine on fire, turret disabled, all these things. I hope they'll implement them one day, cause it will be implemented on the FrenchPack the day after ^^

 

Nicolas


Edited by dimitriov
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Nice, where have you gotten this info from, just curious ?

 

So the only advanced armor model is on the Abrams (including actual angles for the armor) ? That would explain some stuff, although even if they are using basic armor for the rest, some of it still acts pretty well... although inconsistent

 

I mentioned HEAT, because on some tanks when you lock up a target and the gunner makes a call out, he says HEAT

 

Angle at which you shoot at also depends.... sometimes you might be able to pen the front of a tank with AP (face to face), but if you are at an extreme angle, the shell will bounce

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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I just know I attacked a T-55 with a BMP-2 at close range from the side. I hit it with an ATGM and several dozen AP rounds before it eventually decided to rotate its turret around and instapop me with an HE shell. That was the last time I played Combined Arms, since the clunky controls and awful UI pissed me off anyway. A 30mm AP at pointblank range should have no trouble with a T-55s side armor, hull or turret.

 

SAMs are pretty cool, though.

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No, it was from a couple weeks ago. I was testing CA to see if it was something my brother would be interested in. Not disputing your results, but I dunno. I pumped round after round into the hull side, and hit the side or top of the turret with the ATGM.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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No, it was from a couple weeks ago. I was testing CA to see if it was something my brother would be interested in. Not disputing your results, but I dunno. I pumped round after round into the hull side, and hit the side or top of the turret with the ATGM.

 

 

1st: ATGM shot to the side, leave the tank at 10%

2nd: Finish off tank hit with ATGM, from 500+ meters with AP

3rd: Kill another T-55, solely using AP from same distance

4th: One shot a T-55 with the more modern ATGM on the BMP-3

5th: Demonstrate how many bullets it takes to kill a T-55, with the BMP-3 AP cannon (which is the same as the BMP-2 cannon, but it has better stabilization

6th: Kill a T-55 with the 30mm AP from the BMP-2 at a range of >=1000meters

7th: Demonstrate a ricochet on the side of a modern MBT

 

Funnily enough, you can damage and destroy even some of the modern MBTs by shooting them at the side, even with HE. You can see right at the end, I shot the side of the challenger by accident and it actually took damage, indicated by the smoke he released....

 

I did try shooting all the tanks there, there was 3 from all of them which took damage and you need almost all your AP to kill them, from the side.... angles matter too

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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So, I pretty much spent couple of hours testing AI in a 2v2 scenario long range....

 

In general the Abrams dominates the closer you get (talking engaging frontally)

 

All AI were set to High skill (one lower than Excellent)

 

Interestingly enough, at long range I would say the battles were pretty balanced for the most part, I would say 60/40 for the Abrams.... except vs. the LeClerc, that got killed everytime for some reason, even tho in earlier tests, there were some occasions, where it was bouncing everything.

 

Seems like all tanks have the same engagement range for AP, around 3200 meters. The T-90 (72/80) and the Chinese tank (which pretty much mimics the T-90 in-game, with maybe slightly less armor) have an advantage outside that range, because they use ATGMs. With ATGMs they can out-range the Abrams and disable it, pretty much leaving it at 10% and finishing it off.

 

Once they reach the AP engagement range, they always switch to AP, where they loose to the Abrams. Although able to bounce on some occasion, more often than not, they would loose out in the AP battle. You can't force the AI to use ATGMs, once they are inside AP range, which is a shame, because if taken with manual control, you could easily still take the upper hand over the Abrams with the ATGM.

 

Merkava was another interesting one... shouldn't it be able to use ATGMs as well ? When left to the AI, they would loose almost all the time and pretty quick for that matter, but with manual control, as long as you get an accurate shot, 5 out 5 shots for me were one hit one kill on the Abrams (3200 meters).

 

The Leopard 2 and the Challenger 2 were the most interesting battles, getting the closest to that balanced fight, where it was really a 50/50 who would win, with the Challenger 2 doing just slightly better than the Leopard (enough to notice it).

 

There were battles, where both sides would shoot 10s of rounds of AP and you could just see how they bounce of each other... even got a battle or two, where they ran out of AP.

 

From distance, it really does come down to positioning and the element of surprise... the tank which is the better position and shoots first would win, with again... the Abrams having an advantage in general, but if you catch it on the side, unless you miss... you got him one shot.

 

The Chinese tank, as I mentioned, pretty much behaves as a T-90 with its ATGM and I might be wrong, but it seemed to have a sightly less survivability

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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I don't know. I was already frustrated dealing with the controls and some weird view issues then when that happened I just threw my hands in the air. I will retest later, your results sound consistent.

 

I don't know how more favorable it could be than point blank on the side, level ground. I rounded a building on him and it didn't respond for ten plus seconds while I layed into him with everything I had.

 

Thank you for the time you devoted to this. I will look into it.

 

-edit

Do ATGMs have a minimum range in this thing? It's possible it didn't arm, which would have yielded the results I got


Edited by zhukov032186

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It is known thing that damage modeling is very simple in DCS at this moment, it works for OK expectations but it is nowhere near trustworthy or semi-realistic.

 

Meaning that you need to wait that the new damage model goes first to WW2 aircrafts, and then it comes to ground units, eventually to other aircrafts.

 

There you will get a far more complex damage modeling.

 

9314f8ac887075871d99a848f2ff43fc8c6f42e0.jpeg

 

That is WIP picture of the damage modeling there is. So you might expect to see something similar to ground units.

 

I don't like here, but you can go to check other games damage models for the ground vehicles, where you get idea that what to expect in DCS World.

 

It truly is not easy job at all, takes fairly long time for each different 3D model and then for each variant to be adjusted etc.

 

But when it comes, it should be very very much more impressive.

And when finally we get fragmentation effects for the bombs etc. We should start to see far more interesting results against unarmored targets etc.

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I would say it is already pretty advanced for the basic level it uses.

 

Bouncing off, ricochets, weak spots, first stage ammo, second stage ammo, AI reacting slower, not being able to go full speed or not being able to fire at all when heavily damaged ...

 

I would say that what they would benefit the most from right now is a more advanced AI: in regards to movement and engagement and what weapon they use when.

 

The other thing which would be the second best or tied with the AI update, would be more adequate controls, possibility to back up without doing a 180.

 

@Zhukov: Yeah, I know it is pretty janky the whole thing, but once you get used to it, it has a lot of potential. There aren't that many controls. The one I would recommend to remap is the zoom one, by default you have the toggle zoom binded and that's pretty annoying. Everything else is up to personal preference. If you need any help or advice hit me up with a question here.

 

In general, the potential which CA has is enormous, you can have a lot of fun driving around against other people as well as creating co-op mission where you have to work with people in the air to accomplish an objective. CA has the potential to be that ARMA/DCS mix people have been dreaming off (with mostly vehicles tho, not infantry).

 

At the end of the day, is CA basic and janky and sometimes quite annoying ? Definitely !

 

Can you have tons of fun with it still ? 100% !

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Are you asking about my tank tests ?

 

Take a look at the post again, third row, "High"

 

ATGMs can be nasty and very effective, but they are not all the same and do not have the same effects.

 

You can see that in my BMP-2 video. The BMP-2 ATGM left the T-55 at 10%, which means it can't shoot its main gun (or at least the AI wouldn't shoot it) and its engine was damaged (huge reduction in speed).

 

The BMP-3 ATGM on the other hand one shot it, as it was a more modern one.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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1. T-90 also has ATGM's

2. You can back up without doing a 180. Just put your gear into revese

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Interesting discussion guys. I do love me some CA

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Yeah, an ATGM which for the most part does not one shot kill an Abrams from any side (except, maybe if you hit sideways turret ring)

 

You can see me talk about the T-90 in my first posts....

 

About retreating, yeah if you are alone in a group and you are driving the tank.... You cannot order a group to reverse and if you start reversing, the other units in the group will do a 180 and show their butt to the enemy.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Yeah, it's mostly AI that's the shortcoming.

 

@Fri

They're unlikely to ever get highly detailed to that extent on the average unit. Some improvement, yes, but AI ground vehicles are mostly targets for aircraft, AI improvements for more realisitic behavior, and a general UI overhaul and squad interface for player control would be far higher priority.

 

@ShadowKT

I tested a BMP-2 against live T-55s ordered not to return fire, 90' angke right in the sides. I successfully killed them, and could see damage. Results were a little erratic but I think I pinned down the issue. If you hit them ahead of the mid section, even though still in the side, I think it tends to count as frontal hits, and I may not have been penetrating at all. Whether this is due to a simplified ''front/back'' model with no inbetween, the front half actually being a bit heavier, or something else, I don't know, but shots in the rear half were consistently damaging.

 

Regardless, I no longer consider it hopelessly broken, as it seems there was a specific reason for my results. Thanks again for your help!

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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The controls are a little clunky but try this.

 

Rudder pedals for steering, throttle for speed, button for reverse / forward, stick for turret. When outside in isometric view, use the mouse for turret, middle mouse or side mouse for lase, scroll to zoom in.

 

You will need to bind laser, weapon change, zoom, thermal and turret stability to the throttle / stick. This is how I play when in large battle online PVP.


Edited by David OC

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