Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

Just a small correction: that would be an angle of attitude. Angle of attack is entirely separate from the aircraft's attitude relative to the horizon

There is no such thing as an 'angle of attitude'. There's AoA and pitch attitude. Nothing else.

AOA is explicitly the angle between the chord like and the relative wind, and has nothing to do with airspeed.

If it's unaccelerated 1G flight (e.g. during the approach) there is a fixed relationship between AoA and speed and AoA hence has a lot to do with speed.

Since an aircraft stalls due to a too high AoA it would be impossible to determine a 'stall speed' ( or an approach speed with a corresponding AoA) if this wouldn't be the case.

 

If it's unaccelerated 1G flight (e.g. during the approach) there is a fixed relationship between AoA and speed and AoA hence has a lot to do with speed.

 

Since an aircraft stalls due to a too high AoA it would be impossible to determine a 'stall speed' ( or an approach speed with a corresponding AoA) if this wouldn't be the case.

I think we both know the point I was making. In my post originally was an image of the formula for lift (can't see it on kobile for some reason, maybe I accidentally removed it when I was fixing my formatting), and if any variable is there (Cl) then there is obviously a relationship. The easiest way to understand aoa is to understand that they're not directly (visibly) related for all aspects of flight, because using (the only) example where a certain airspeed produces a stall extreme oversimplification, which is why I went into detail on many parts about the relationship. Vso and Vs1 aren't even published for the hornet, because it references AOA.

bbrz, your misinterpreting the lessons here and have left out some context, this makes it hard to understand what they where explaining and why.

NoJoe is helping sc_neo, explaining the error using his line

(as in degrees to the horizon) I.E. angle of attitude.

"The angle formed between the main plane of projectile and the horizontal ground. Compare angle of attack."

Then NoJoe went on to explain how AOA works.

Your also misinterpreting the lesson ttaylor0024 is trying to make here, it's not that it doesn't have anything to do with airspeed, he was just explaining how you can have different air speeds and achieve the same AOA.

"AOA is explicitly the angle between the chord like and the relative wind, and has nothing to do with airspeed. I can be at 300kts at 15* AOA, or 20kts at 15* AOA"

It works seen altogether right, by itself you would add....

(AOA is explicitly the angle between the chord line and the relative wind, and has nothing to do with a particular or given airspeed.)

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bbrz, your misinterpreting the lessons here and have left out some context, this makes it hard to understand what they where explaining and why

 

1. ...he was just explaining how you can have different air speeds and achieve the same AOA.

2. (AOA is explicitly the angle between the chord line and the relative wind, and has nothing to do with a particular or given airspeed.)

I'm not misinterpreting anything or leaving anything out. This discussion is not about maneuvering or ACM.

1. Not in the approach (1G) case. It's exclusively about unaccelerated 1G flight. Using terms that don't exist in aviation like 'angle of attitude' certainly doesn't help in understanding and/or clarifying this discussion.

2. And again this is only valid during maneuvering and not during the approach or straight and level flight, which is what we are talking about.

I think some of the confusion in the topic is also related to not knowing that not all a/c have the same control laws.

For example you cannot directly compare landing experience of pitch rate command vs AoA command pilot stick which is activated with flaps and gears down in F18.

As a side line... first a/c I learned to fly were gliders. And I learned there exactly the same procedure ... Stick for "AoA" and airbrake as "power" - glideslope.

NAME OF THE GAME : STAY ON SPEED PERIOD.

It's just an AOA thing:

Rules:

-1)Pulling on stick or lowering the throttle will increase AOA.

-2)Pushing on stick or adding throttle will lower AOA.

-3)Do what you got to do to stay "Onspeed", you can climb descent turn but do it "onspeed"!

-4)Take a bolter like a man.

So it's not only stick to descend or throttle for speed or the opposite.

It's all at the same time to be as quick as possible.

For the landing/trap, the correction amplitude need to be small and the correction frequency need to be high.

Exemple: below flypath/Onspeed?

there are 2 way to climb.

if you pull the stick you will increase AOA so you need to add power.

or

if you add power your AOA will decrease so you need to pull on stick.

A guy that anticipate will add first a shot of power (deacrease AOA) then pull on stick one millisec after. (so throttle for glide path/stick for speed, good one)

A guy with no anticipation will pull first, (thus increase AOA) then add throttle. (stick for glide path/ throttle for speed in this case)

The first one is the most common and explained, but the second will work as well.

That was what i was doing when landing on boat.

there are 2 way to climb.

 

if you pull the stick you will increase AOA so you need to add power.

or

if you add power your AOA will decrease so you need to pull on stick.

 

If u are trimmed correctly when adding power, the nose will raise by itself and there is no reason or need to pull on the stick.

i/e Stick/trim for AoA and throttle for glideslope.

If u are trimmed correctly when adding power, the nose will raise by itself and there is no reason or need to pull on the stick.

That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.

LOL, it's made me jump back in the A-10C and do some proper on speed ILS approaches, been a while doing it by the book, I know it's not following the outside ball, still hard and good practice! Add a little crosswind and turbulence if you want to make it harder.

Try it if you haven't lately and you own the A-10C. Remember to Extend Speed Airbrakes 40%, this keeps the engines nicely spooled up and easier to control power.

Stay on Glide Slope Deviation Scale while also staying (on speed) AOA, using the indexer (green donut) as seen below, Hold this profile all the way down to land, no flare!

The A-10C can take it.:D

Refresher video if you haven't setup ILS in a while,

The vfa-141 have some good content and pics.

Great shot showing the relationship of the rear main gear, hook and deck and the importance of having "on speed" AOA.

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That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

 

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

 

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

 

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.

At least you can do that in a hornet, to some degrees. When FLAP half or full, the FCS does active AOA control for you. As neofightr said, he uses his thumb and index finger to hold the stick so as to reduce longitudinal influence on the stick, unless you hit a bump when the FCS lags a little behind.

That's why I think the hornet would be a good module to help people understand how to use throttle for G/S.

If u are trimmed correctly when adding power, the nose will raise by itself and there is no reason or need to pull on the stick.

i/e Stick/trim for AoA and throttle for glideslope.

I completly agree, we call that the "phugoid" but there is lag and latency on it.

That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

 

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

 

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

 

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.

That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.

That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.

So on the F/A-18 if you add thrust the nose pitches up and you let it wander uncontrolled around?

So on the F/A-18 if you add thrust the nose pitches up and you let it wander uncontrolled around?

It doesn't wander uncontrolled. You trim for an AOA, it maintains that AOA. Get the VSI correction you want? Reduce power to maintain it. The nose doesn't flop around like a fish out of water, even on aircraft without FBW.

Hey guys

If you fly slow, like you do on final, than you fly on the `back side` of the power curve. You need to add more power because of the higher aoa compared to the aoa on endurance speed. Aft stick to reduce or stop descent would increase drag even more and lead to a greater rate of descent (if you do not power up anyway).

That`s why you use `back side` techniques for manual procedures on the f18 according to the natops , which means you primarily work your left hand for glide path and your right hand for aoa. Regardless if you are going to land on an airport or a carrier. Doing it that way will reduces your workload. In above example, reducing or stopping your descent will be done primarly by increasing power a bit. I agree with ttayler and addde, there is no need to stir the stick. Reduce the inputs to what is necessary.

The nose doesn't flop around like a fish out of water, even on aircraft without FBW.

I don't know any aircraft where 'the nose flops around like a fish out of water' and I don't understand what this has to do with precise pitch control.

It's a nice feature if you don't need to actively control the pitch attitude with the stick on the F/A-18 during the approach, but you can't deny that you apparently exactly know how fast and how much the pitch attitude changes with thrust changes and this has a lot to do with the FBW system.

I agree with ttayler and addde, there is no need to stir the stick. Reduce the inputs to what is necessary.

There's quite a bit of a difference between 'stirring the stick' and precise pitch control.

I don't know any aircraft where 'the nose flops around like a fish out of water' and I don't understand what this has to do with precise pitch control.

It's a nice feature if you don't need to actively control the pitch attitude with the stick on the F/A-18 during the approach, but you can't deny that you apparently exactly know how fast and how much the pitch attitude changes with thrust changes and this has a lot to do with the FBW system.

That was in reference to your "add thrust the nose pitches up and you let it wander uncontrolled around" statement.

You fly on speed, you make 3 part power corrections, and you bracket your VSI as you energize the ball on the way down. This works the same on non-FBW aircraft as it does on the hornet. You're overestimating how unruly the aircraft is. You trim on-speed and the aircraft seeks it (FBW or not). You add power the aircraft will want to maintain the same AOA, which would mean the nose would come up relative to the amount of power you add. Works the same pulling power off. You'll see the throttle moved around a lot in videos because it's nearly impossible to set the exact perfect power setting, and that will change as well when you hit turbulence or the burble. The quick adjustments are normally bracketed as you come down the groove. You're correct in that if you go MIL your nose will start climbing away, however you don't normally select mil unless you're low or waving off/bolter.l

As said before, it's a little more difficult to fully understand until you've actually done it and have experience with it. This is how the Navy does it, and is the most reliable and safest way to get board. Sometimes you just have to hit the "I believe" button until it clicks. You'd be hitting that button all the time IRL because it just takes time to understand why. All of these procedures were created with blood, and you don't have enough lives to make them all yourself.

Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

LOL, it's made me jump back in the A-10C and do some proper on speed ILS approaches, been a while doing it by the book, I know it's not following the outside ball, still hard and good practice! Add a little crosswind and turbulence if you want to make it harder.

 

 

 

Try it if you haven't lately and you own the A-10C. Remember to Extend Speed Airbrakes 40%, this keeps the engines nicely spooled up and easier to control power.

 

 

 

Stay on Glide Slope Deviation Scale while also staying (on speed) AOA, using the indexer (green donut) as seen below, Hold this profile all the way down to land, no flare!

 

The A-10C can take it.:D

 

 

 

 

 

 

Refresher video if you haven't setup ILS in a while,

 

 

 

The vfa-141 have some good content and pics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great shot showing the relationship of the rear main gear, hook and deck and the importance of having "on speed" AOA.

 

 

 

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I noticed you're using 64° which is the magnetic north for the Kobuleti airfield, which one should I use, MN or true north?

I always used TN, never felt right to be honest, depending on the airfield.

I noticed you're using 64° which is the Magnitude north for the Kobuleti airfield, which one should I use, MN or true north?

 

I always used TN, never felt right to be honest, depending on the airfield.

Runways are in relation to magnetic north, which is what's displayed in the aircraft.

Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

Just noticed I wrote magnitude instead of magnetic. Sorry for the typo.

Thanks!

That was in reference to your "add thrust the nose pitches up and you let it wander uncontrolled around" statement.

 

You fly on speed, you make 3 part power corrections, and you bracket your VSI as you energize the ball on the way down. This works the same on non-FBW aircraft as it does on the hornet. You're overestimating how unruly the aircraft is. You trim on-speed and the aircraft seeks it (FBW or not). You add power the aircraft will want to maintain the same AOA, which would mean the nose would come up relative to the amount of power you add. Works the same pulling power off. You'll see the throttle moved around a lot in videos because it's nearly impossible to set the exact perfect power setting, and that will change as well when you hit turbulence or the burble. The quick adjustments are normally bracketed as you come down the groove. You're correct in that if you go MIL your nose will start climbing away, however you don't normally select mil unless you're low or waving off/bolter.l

 

As said before, it's a little more difficult to fully understand until you've actually done it and have experience with it. This is how the Navy does it, and is the most reliable and safest way to get board. Sometimes you just have to hit the "I believe" button until it clicks. You'd be hitting that button all the time IRL because it just takes time to understand why. All of these procedures were created with blood, and you don't have enough lives to make them all yourself.

I recommend doing a few on speed ILS approaches if you want to see this in action, like the example I posted before.

Even the A-10C will try and seek it's AOA when coming down the ILS GS.

When you setup up from the 90 degs etc, make sure to trim for level flight (on speed AOA) (green donut) first, like it's done for the F/A-18 in the pattern.

To make the A-10C get out of on speed AOA while coming down the GS, takes a great deal of throttle as you will see if you try it, this also takes you way off the GS.

Also, don't load up with weapons and only take half a tank or so of fuel, so she doesn't feel like your swimming in mud when flying, I know She likes to roll around in the mud, just keep her clean for once.:)

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So, I have been lurking in this thread for a while and I think its time I add my .02

I have been trying to use these techniques with the SU-33 trying to land on the Kuznetsov. I have to say if you truly want a challenge and have FC3 or want to try the Russian carrier based aircraft in DCS to try it out with the SU-33. It is not easy at all to stay on glide slope when approaching the Kuznetsov, lining up is not easy either as the ship is moving forward... Anyone trying to land on a stationary ship is not doing it right in my book...

Anyways, I can land this SU-33 perfectly onto a stationary runway... But when it comes to landing on the Kuznetsov, even in ideal weather conditions it is very difficult to stay on glide slope it gets even more difficult when you get closer to the ship, about to touch wheels down.

I find that I'm always catching the first (ramp strike) or last (bolter) wire

You guys trying to do this stuff in the A-10C, i'm sorry but doing this with the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov is a whole new ball game and if you really want to practice for the hornet... I suggest landing the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov and mastering that. Until you try it, you won't see how difficult it is.

And if any of you experienced naval aviators might be able to give me some pointers on landing the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov and help me get better proficiency that would be great. I'm mostly having problems with staying on glide slope, over correcting and trimming.

I'm running 1.5.8 Stable release, maybe some stuff has changed in 2.5 OB

You guys trying to do this stuff in the A-10C, i'm sorry but doing this with the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov is a whole new ball game and if you really want to practice for the hornet... I suggest landing the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov and mastering that. Until you try it, you won't see how difficult it is.

I tried with stationary carrier in post #27 with success. Thanks to the Su33 FBW mimicking the stability characteristics of a conventional aircraft, it is pretty easy to utilize this technique.

I also tried with moving carrier later, but seems no difference to me as long as I'm using the navigation (large) circle as a reference for line-up. It will calculate the lead for you.

So, I have been lurking in this thread for a while and I think its time I add my .02

 

I have been trying to use these techniques with the SU-33 trying to land on the Kuznetsov. I have to say if you truly want a challenge and have FC3 or want to try the Russian carrier based aircraft in DCS to try it out with the SU-33. It is not easy at all to stay on glide slope when approaching the Kuznetsov, lining up is not easy either as the ship is moving forward... Anyone trying to land on a stationary ship is not doing it right in my book...

 

Anyways, I can land this SU-33 perfectly onto a stationary runway... But when it comes to landing on the Kuznetsov, even in ideal weather conditions it is very difficult to stay on glide slope it gets even more difficult when you get closer to the ship, about to touch wheels down.

 

I find that I'm always catching the first (ramp strike) or last (bolter) wire

 

You guys trying to do this stuff in the A-10C, i'm sorry but doing this with the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov is a whole new ball game and if you really want to practice for the hornet... I suggest landing the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov and mastering that. Until you try it, you won't see how difficult it is.

 

And if any of you experienced naval aviators might be able to give me some pointers on landing the SU-33 on the Kuznetsov and help me get better proficiency that would be great. I'm mostly having problems with staying on glide slope, over correcting and trimming.

 

I'm running 1.5.8 Stable release, maybe some stuff has changed in 2.5 OB

They have good Info here at the vfa-141.com, the SU-33 HUD info is at the very bottom, the landing pattern can stay the same as the Hornet as shown.

Navy aviators IRL don't get to go out to the boat until cleared to.

The Guy seen in the shed in the video is representing the LSO

Even when the Hornet is released, to train for the boat you should get these fundamentals down pat on land, even if just using the A-10C's ILS for now, that's the main reason I'm using the A-10C (ILS to follow GS) and it's not to far off the speed (Hornet 8.1 AOA at around 140 knots) A-10 Missing the HUD (On Speed) E Bracket also, you can enable the ground radar tape in the HUD.

This is just to get the fundamentals down "consistently", this technique should be second nature before trying to consistently land on the "moving, angled" boat, make sure you are trimmed correctly for LEVEL (on speed) AOA when in the pattern, watch Wags VFR hornet video if you haven't? Take note how hard it's is to get the last turn correct and to stay (on speed AOA).

Practice the pattern on a land base until it's second nature, with the Su-33 I recommend, do touch and go landings, as seen in the video above.

800 Feet = 240 meters

600 Feet = 183 meters

450 Feet = 137 meters

In the A10 using the ILS, I'm flying the (Glide Slope Deviation Scale) and not the ball LOL

THe Su-33 is very different, put the little circle (ILS Guidance Mark) inside the big circle (Flight Director), don't look at the deck and try and land on a spot.

You fly the ball all the way down ( F/A-18 ) to stay on GS, you don't look at the runway, well only to stay aligned.

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I would recommend this mod to practice flying the ball: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3171451/

The ball is functioning but it's a bit low. Maybe only 3 deg I guess.