Cruiser18 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I am actually not kidding when I'm asking this, but what is the best way to utilize rudders while dogfighting? I have a Saitek combat pro rudder pedals set, but I tend to find that I shy away from using it while flying fixed wing crafts. Obviously while I'm flying the helicopters I use it a lot, but outside taxiing I hardly ever touch them when using the SU-25T, SU-27, FW-190 or Mig-21. Now I usually never have any trouble blowing any opponent out of the sky in a guns dogfight using just pitch and roll, but I'm pretty certain that there's a good use for rudders in combat, although in my experience touching the rudders will just make me swerve wildly and disturb the energy of my plane. Any offers on when rudders are useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibit Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I use them to keep my nose level when turning sharply. Also for getting rounds on target. Personal preference I suppose. I am a crap fighter pilot, just like hauling trash in my Hip and huey:) i5 8600k@5.2Ghz, Asus Prime A Z370, 32Gb DDR4 3000, GTX1080 SC, Oculus Rift CV1, Modded TM Warthog Modded X52 Collective, Jetseat, W10 Pro 64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Adding JTAC Guide //My Vid's//229th AHB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through. Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes. Spoiler Intel 13900K (5Ghz), 64Gb 6400Mhz, MSi RTX 3090, Schiit Modi/Magi DAC/AMP, ASUS PG43UQ, Hotas Warthog, RealSimulator FSSB3, 2x TM MFDs + DCS MFDs, MFG Crosswinds, Elgato Steamdeck XL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser18 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through. Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes. You wouldn't happen to be able to link to some good video's would you? The only videos I can find on the subject of rudder only goes as far as saying "It's to keep the slip ball centered when turning". Can't find any comprehensive source on why one should bother with the rudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abburo Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Besides being mandatory to use rudder in turns to stabilize, keep the level and so on, it can also be used with great success while strafing with onboard cannon/guns. Romanian Community for DCS World HW Specs: AMD 7900X, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090, HOTAS Virpil, MFG, CLS-E, custom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nervousenergy Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 When flying in a real prop plane the rudder is very organic. You can feel slip, and it's not particularly subtle, even for a new/learning pilot. I want to say it's like driving with the front wheels badly out of alignment, but it's actually worse than that... power steering does a lot to mask bad alignment. Coordinated turns and no-slip flight seem hard in the sim because the only feedback is this little ball, but the sim does accurately model it... if you're not keeping things centered you're giving up speed, gun accuracy, and bleeding tons of extra energy. Try doing some practice flights while paying way more attention to the ball than you're used to, and keep it centered. You'll soon start to automatically put some rudder into turns due to muscle memory. It sucks, but it's the only way since we get no other feedback, and you can't keep staring at the ball in combat. It wouldn't be very realistic in a closed-canopy warbird, but it would be neat if ED could implement some wind sound variation for varying degrees of slip. 1 PC - 3900X - Asus Crosshair Hero VIII - NZXT Kraken 63 - 32 GB RAM - 2080ti - SB X-Fi Titanium PCIe - Alienware UW - Windows 10 Sim hardware - Warthog throttle - VKB Gunfighter III - CH Quadrant - Slaw Device Pedals - Obutto R3volution pit - HP Reverb G2 - 2X AuraSound shakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesnyborsuk Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 The only videos I can find on the subject of rudder only goes as far as saying "It's to keep the slip ball centered when turning". Can't find any comprehensive source on why one should bother with the rudder. This little ball can save your life. Really. First of all - when the ball is NOT in the center you are in the uncoordinated turn, and therefore in slip or skid. This means that you are bleeding off more energy. But the most important thing is when you stall in uncoordinated turn, you can end up in a spin. And when you don't have enough altitude, you will not recover. This is one of the most leading violent ends for many real life, GA pilots. Lukasz 1 I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBS17 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through. Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes. It depends on what you are flying, the rudder in a lot of modern fighters is hardly used since they have FBW and once you are at high speed they are not used at all. For dogfighting in the F-15C I use the rudder only in low speed and it can be used both for Yaw and in Roll in certain situations in a dogfight. With FBW you do not need to coordinate your turns either as the FBW does all that. Of course for props the rudder is compulsory and is used all the time especially in the P51D. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser18 Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thx for the input guys. I will see if I can't get rudders more incorporated in my flying, especially for the prop planes. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitMaster Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Do the basics and you will answer the question to yourself ;) Asking this question shows that you need more basic knowledge regarding "how an aeroplane flies". Bit Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser18 Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Do the basics and you will answer the question to yourself ;) Asking this question shows that you need more basic knowledge regarding "how an aeroplane flies". Bit Well the problem is that I have never felt that it was missing. No problems with bombing runs, dogfights, landings or anything. I was just wondering what other people thought of rudder usage, seeing how little impact rudders has on my flying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesnyborsuk Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here is one another reason to use coordinated turns Short and fun to watch :). I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sungsam Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Well the problem is that I have never felt that it was missing. No problems with bombing runs, dogfights, landings or anything. I was just wondering what other people thought of rudder usage, seeing how little impact rudders has on my flying. Hi ! In few words .... i'm pretty sure that you have ended in a dogfight situation, chasing the enemy LOS kill dot for guns in an extended turn, but never able to brink it on.... because your energy (speed) doesn't allow any more harder turn (increased turn rate). It is because you are bliding energy, It is becouse you don't use your rudders. .... It makes you turn Coordinated=Faster= Easier Why do you try to approache everything from your vertical line ? :hehe: Edited January 20, 2015 by sungsam DCS F16C 52+ w JHMCS ! DCS AH64D Longbow ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I am actually not kidding when I'm asking this, but what is the best way to utilize rudders while dogfighting? Depends on the fight and the aircraft. I have a Saitek combat pro rudder pedals set, but I tend to find that I shy away from using it while flying fixed wing crafts. Obviously while I'm flying the helicopters I use it a lot, but outside taxiing I hardly ever touch them when using the SU-25T, SU-27, FW-190 or Mig-21. IIRC the Su-27 coordinates on its own, so other than a really slow fight (or if there is a necessity, like sliding that pipper over just a bit in A2A) leave it alone. You do need to use it at slow speeds, mostly instead of aileron. For the other aircraft, always use it to coordinate your turns. As for strafing and bombing, try to avoid using rudder - especially when bombing. Now I usually never have any trouble blowing any opponent out of the sky in a guns dogfight using just pitch and roll, but I'm pretty certain that there's a good use for rudders in combat, although in my experience touching the rudders will just make me swerve wildly and disturb the energy of my plane. Any offers on when rudders are useful? Really slow fights tend to make the rudders useful. If your aircraft is yawing wildly, check your rudder curves. And then your feet. ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirabee Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Slip ball to the left => left rudder, slip to the right => right rudder 1 People fly planes, pilots fly helicopters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Slip ball to the left => left rudder, slip to the right => right rudder Also known as 'step on the ball' rule. :) Remember, use a soft touch and with practice it will become second nature. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucano_uy Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen. Think it this way: "STEP ON THE BALL" so if the ball is to the left, you apply left rudder. Also you may want to modify the in game rudder curves to avoid that crazy yaw, making them shallower closer to the centre. Most of the times the amount of rudder required to keep the ball centered is minimal. Saitek rudder's center stop doesn't help at all when minimal corrections close to the centre are required, you may want to try and remove the stop. There's a tutorial somewhere in the forums, if you don't mind to fiddle with your hardware, you may try to do it, it helped somewhat in my case. Then, for practice, I would fly the Mustang (it can be the free one that comes with the sim!) without trimming ailerons and rudder, change speeds and power settings every now and then, the airplane will slip to one side when going faster and to the other when going slower, with the wings levelled try to keep the ball centered with the pedals. Edit: SNIPED!!! Edited August 27, 2015 by Tucano_uy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Also known as 'step on the ball' rule. :) Remember, use a soft touch and with practice it will become second nature. I don't know the right term in english. Btw, Thank you :thumbup: People fly planes, pilots fly helicopters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerd1000 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 In the MiG-21 the rudder can be used to roll in high AoA turns where the ailerons are ineffective. Just apply rudder in the direction you want to roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaccoZ__Amigo1__ Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 In the MiG-21 the rudder can be used to roll in high AoA turns where the ailerons are ineffective. Just apply rudder in the direction you want to roll. That also works really well at high speed low AoA for making 90degree roll inputs really quickly for example to go defensive in the Fishbed. Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed. :pilotfly: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomba Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'm surprised at how useful the rudder is in the Mig, even at relatively higher speeds. It also has a huge amount of authority at low speed/high alpha, even more than the ailerons. I don't test for bugs, but when I do I do it in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fri13 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I'm surprised at how useful the rudder is in the Mig, even at relatively higher speeds. It also has a huge amount of authority at low speed/high alpha, even more than the ailerons. But that is going to change in update.... At least the LNS short September update, says there is fix/change. mproved drag chute physics, including chute use in stall/spin recovery (Animation is however still limited) Corrected Rudder Authority (“Rudder overpowering ailerons”) Added UUA Sensor animation Improved Over-G weapon jettison (Dynamic Weight Calculation, per-pylon/weapon limit) But I do agree, rudder helps and should become as second nature fairly quickly when practising. I don't know what it means, many that ailerons have a power X and and rudder is now X+Y in power. I remember that 4477th tested Mig-21Bis found that rudder had big effect to rolling at higher speeds and was effective way to roll it then. Edited September 9, 2015 by Fri13 i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 You press on the side the ball is away from. As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen. AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I confused myself, on the ball side AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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