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Rudders in combat


Cruiser18

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I am actually not kidding when I'm asking this, but what is the best way to utilize rudders while dogfighting?

 

I have a Saitek combat pro rudder pedals set, but I tend to find that I shy away from using it while flying fixed wing crafts. Obviously while I'm flying the helicopters I use it a lot, but outside taxiing I hardly ever touch them when using the SU-25T, SU-27, FW-190 or Mig-21.

 

Now I usually never have any trouble blowing any opponent out of the sky in a guns dogfight using just pitch and roll, but I'm pretty certain that there's a good use for rudders in combat, although in my experience touching the rudders will just make me swerve wildly and disturb the energy of my plane.

 

Any offers on when rudders are useful?

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I use them to keep my nose level when turning sharply. Also for getting rounds on target. Personal preference I suppose. I am a crap fighter pilot, just like hauling trash in my Hip and huey:)

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Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through.

 

Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes.

 

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Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through.

 

Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes.

 

You wouldn't happen to be able to link to some good video's would you? The only videos I can find on the subject of rudder only goes as far as saying "It's to keep the slip ball centered when turning". Can't find any comprehensive source on why one should bother with the rudder.

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When flying in a real prop plane the rudder is very organic. You can feel slip, and it's not particularly subtle, even for a new/learning pilot. I want to say it's like driving with the front wheels badly out of alignment, but it's actually worse than that... power steering does a lot to mask bad alignment. Coordinated turns and no-slip flight seem hard in the sim because the only feedback is this little ball, but the sim does accurately model it... if you're not keeping things centered you're giving up speed, gun accuracy, and bleeding tons of extra energy.

 

Try doing some practice flights while paying way more attention to the ball than you're used to, and keep it centered. You'll soon start to automatically put some rudder into turns due to muscle memory. It sucks, but it's the only way since we get no other feedback, and you can't keep staring at the ball in combat.

 

It wouldn't be very realistic in a closed-canopy warbird, but it would be neat if ED could implement some wind sound variation for varying degrees of slip.

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The only videos I can find on the subject of rudder only goes as far as saying "It's to keep the slip ball centered when turning". Can't find any comprehensive source on why one should bother with the rudder.

 

This little ball can save your life. Really.

 

First of all - when the ball is NOT in the center you are in the uncoordinated turn, and therefore in slip or skid. This means that you are bleeding off more energy.

 

But the most important thing is when you stall in uncoordinated turn, you can end up in a spin. And when you don't have enough altitude, you will not recover. This is one of the most leading violent ends for many real life, GA pilots.

 

Lukasz

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Use them the same way you would outside of combat, to coordinate turns and rapid roll inputs. Sounds like you would benefit from just reading up on basic flying and control principles really, there are a few good videos on YouTube by various flight instructors intended for people staying for their pilots licence which are good to watch through.

 

Your rudders should be seeing just as much use as your stick in all flight regimes.

 

It depends on what you are flying, the rudder in a lot of modern fighters is hardly used since they have FBW and once you are at high speed they are not used at all. For dogfighting in the F-15C I use the rudder only in low speed and it can be used both for Yaw and in Roll in certain situations in a dogfight. With FBW you do not need to coordinate your turns either as the FBW does all that. Of course for props the rudder is compulsory and is used all the time especially in the P51D.

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Do the basics and you will answer the question to yourself ;)

 

 

Asking this question shows that you need more basic knowledge regarding "how an aeroplane flies".

 

 

Bit

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Do the basics and you will answer the question to yourself ;)

 

Asking this question shows that you need more basic knowledge regarding "how an aeroplane flies".

 

Bit

 

Well the problem is that I have never felt that it was missing. No problems with bombing runs, dogfights, landings or anything. I was just wondering what other people thought of rudder usage, seeing how little impact rudders has on my flying.

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Well the problem is that I have never felt that it was missing. No problems with bombing runs, dogfights, landings or anything. I was just wondering what other people thought of rudder usage, seeing how little impact rudders has on my flying.

 

Hi !

 

In few words .... i'm pretty sure that you have ended in a dogfight situation, chasing the enemy LOS kill dot for guns in an extended turn, but never able to brink it on.... because your energy (speed) doesn't allow any more harder turn (increased turn rate).

 

It is because you are bliding energy, It is becouse you don't use your rudders. .... It makes you turn Coordinated=Faster= Easier

 

Why do you try to approache everything from your vertical line ? :hehe:


Edited by sungsam

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I am actually not kidding when I'm asking this, but what is the best way to utilize rudders while dogfighting?

 

Depends on the fight and the aircraft.

 

I have a Saitek combat pro rudder pedals set, but I tend to find that I shy away from using it while flying fixed wing crafts. Obviously while I'm flying the helicopters I use it a lot, but outside taxiing I hardly ever touch them when using the SU-25T, SU-27, FW-190 or Mig-21.

 

IIRC the Su-27 coordinates on its own, so other than a really slow fight (or if there is a necessity, like sliding that pipper over just a bit in A2A) leave it alone. You do need to use it at slow speeds, mostly instead of aileron.

 

For the other aircraft, always use it to coordinate your turns.

As for strafing and bombing, try to avoid using rudder - especially when bombing.

 

Now I usually never have any trouble blowing any opponent out of the sky in a guns dogfight using just pitch and roll, but I'm pretty certain that there's a good use for rudders in combat, although in my experience touching the rudders will just make me swerve wildly and disturb the energy of my plane.

 

Any offers on when rudders are useful?

 

 

Really slow fights tend to make the rudders useful. If your aircraft is yawing wildly, check your rudder curves. And then your feet. ;)

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  • 7 months later...

As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen.

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Slip ball to the left => left rudder, slip to the right => right rudder

 

Also known as 'step on the ball' rule. :) Remember, use a soft touch and with practice it will become second nature.

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As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen.

 

Think it this way: "STEP ON THE BALL" so if the ball is to the left, you apply left rudder.

 

Also you may want to modify the in game rudder curves to avoid that crazy yaw, making them shallower closer to the centre. Most of the times the amount of rudder required to keep the ball centered is minimal. Saitek rudder's center stop doesn't help at all when minimal corrections close to the centre are required, you may want to try and remove the stop. There's a tutorial somewhere in the forums, if you don't mind to fiddle with your hardware, you may try to do it, it helped somewhat in my case.

 

Then, for practice, I would fly the Mustang (it can be the free one that comes with the sim!) without trimming ailerons and rudder, change speeds and power settings every now and then, the airplane will slip to one side when going faster and to the other when going slower, with the wings levelled try to keep the ball centered with the pedals.

 

 

 

Edit: SNIPED!!!


Edited by Tucano_uy
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Also known as 'step on the ball' rule. :) Remember, use a soft touch and with practice it will become second nature.

 

I don't know the right term in english.

Btw, Thank you :thumbup:

People fly planes, pilots fly helicopters

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In the MiG-21 the rudder can be used to roll in high AoA turns where the ailerons are ineffective. Just apply rudder in the direction you want to roll.

 

 

That also works really well at high speed low AoA for making 90degree roll inputs really quickly for example to go defensive in the Fishbed.

Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed. :pilotfly:

 

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I'm surprised at how useful the rudder is in the Mig, even at relatively higher speeds. It also has a huge amount of authority at low speed/high alpha, even more than the ailerons.

I don't test for bugs, but when I do I do it in production.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm surprised at how useful the rudder is in the Mig, even at relatively higher speeds. It also has a huge amount of authority at low speed/high alpha, even more than the ailerons.

 

But that is going to change in update.... At least the LNS short September update, says there is fix/change.

 

  • mproved drag chute physics, including chute use in stall/spin recovery (Animation is however still limited)
  • Corrected Rudder Authority (“Rudder overpowering ailerons”)
  • Added UUA Sensor animation
  • Improved Over-G weapon jettison (Dynamic Weight Calculation, per-pylon/weapon limit)

 

But I do agree, rudder helps and should become as second nature fairly quickly when practising.

 

I don't know what it means, many that ailerons have a power X and and rudder is now X+Y in power.

 

I remember that 4477th tested Mig-21Bis found that rudder had big effect to rolling at higher speeds and was effective way to roll it then.


Edited by Fri13

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  • 2 weeks later...

You press on the side the ball is away from.

As a rule of thumb, may I know if I'm to push left or right rudder when the slip ball rolls to the left or right? I've always been a little confused there. I'm new to rudder use myself but I recently picked a fairly used Saitek Pro from a friend and I'm feeling my way around with the settings and stuff. Presently, each touch of the pedals skews me wildly about and I'm hoping too that someone can put me right there. Danke schoen.

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Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I confused myself, on the ball side

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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