Fri13 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Shame we actually payed for that.. :( Well.... It was a good thing to happen, as ED realized they needed to add a new clause to the agreement that 3rd party studios needs to hand off the source code for maintenance if they drop out from the DCS business etc. This just quarentees that ED is the one that is then responsible for the module maintenance etc to guarantee it works in the future and the "Hawk incident" doesn't happen again. i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K. Link to comment
Mars Exulte Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Well.... It was a good thing to happen, as ED realized they needed to add a new clause to the agreement that 3rd party studios needs to hand off the source code for maintenance if they drop out from the DCS business etc. This just quarentees that ED is the one that is then responsible for the module maintenance etc to guarantee it works in the future and the "Hawk incident" doesn't happen again. Agreed. Better a relatively minor plane from a smallish company than something big and expensive down the road when somebody goes belly up or something due to bankruptcy and/or internal drama then somebody decides to take their ball and go home. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment
Pman Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Well.... It was a good thing to happen, as ED realized they needed to add a new clause to the agreement that 3rd party studios needs to hand off the source code for maintenance if they drop out from the DCS business etc. This just quarentees that ED is the one that is then responsible for the module maintenance etc to guarantee it works in the future and the "Hawk incident" doesn't happen again. Just to straighten the rope a bit - it was the other way around ED presented a new contract with this as one (but not the only new clause) and the team walked away, the clause did not come in after this. Pman Link to comment
cichlidfan Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Just to straighten the rope a bit - it was the other way around ED presented a new contract with this as one (but not the only new clause) and the team walked away, the clause did not come in after this. Pman Interesting take since that is not the way it was presented by VEAO or ED when it occured. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment
Pman Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Interesting take since that is not the way it was presented by VEAO or ED when it occured. It is if you read the VEAO statement carefully. The new contract was the tipping point that made the decision to walk away, the contract wasn't a result of VEAO walking away. Link to comment
Fri13 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 It is if you read the VEAO statement carefully. The new contract was the tipping point that made the decision to walk away, the contract wasn't a result of VEAO walking away. Okay, need to read their statement again, as it was already very very vague to begin with. And IIRC ED own statement was that after VEAO decided to walk away, they made an offer to acquire the licensing from VEAO to maintain it. But VEAO didn't agree to that and so on ED didn't get the rights for it, and so on after that ED wanted to make sure that doesn't happen anymore that 3rd party studio can walk away with the money and leave unsupported module hanging to ED customers, that they changed the agreement with everyone else. https://stormbirds.blog/2018/11/25/veao-ceasing-dcs-world-development/ So from ED part, it is completely opposite, they say straight that nothing changed in licensing with VEAO and hawk, and it was so on VEAO own decision to walk away and not support Hawk anymore like ED hoped for. And anyone who remembers the VEAO development manners, they first said that they release the SFM hawk and then the PFM hawk will cost extra as update later on. Then they decided to release the PFM free to Hawk owners but that was after long time without major updates to it. People were really off by its "on the rails" kind flying etc and waiting to get to buy the PFM version. Then they were happy for the free upgrade. For a while everything looked promising, but then the development stalled. Textures were added but it was so seriously bad that performance was just awful, completely unplayable for many. And after longer period of unplayable status, VEAO walked away, as IIRC they had even serious developer team conflicts (similar to Leatherneck situation on MiG-21Bis). The whole Hawk was dropped on ED toes as wet towel and they couldn't do anything else for it than hope VEAO would maintain it. But it didn't happen. And if you now would think about it, as ED has changed the agreement with the others so everyone else has this same clause that if 3rd party studio walks away, that ED gains the licensing: 1) Why has not anyone else walked away because of that? Like ED is not gaining higher share from the profit with it! 2) If VEAO got negative feelings about that they would need to share/give the license if they walk away from DCS, then why did they walk away instead continue supporting it for profits? What is known is that every module requires here and there some changed when DCS gets updated. A normal life of software development when you are tied to someone else platform. And it wouldn't be nice thing to do if you didn't get much profits in first place (for whatever reasons) and then you still need to spend time (= money) to chase the development of the platform. So what would you do in such case if you are bleeding money without profits? You stop it. You simply pack your case and you wave hand.... What is a challenge that 3rd party studios need to choose carefully their modules that will generate profit to them for given time and total amount. Personally I don't care anymore about Hawk because it was so terribly broken in the final supported version. Flying at Mach 6 and up without limits to altitude etc, doesn't matter if it could be added to latest DCS, as it would be just more broken. It was interesting module, but it just did not work out. Developers knew it, ED knew it. And end is known. Many didn't burn their fingers as it was nothing like if F-14B or F/A-18C would had such a ending, as that would have released a hell.... i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K. Link to comment
cichlidfan Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 Hmm, can't help but notice that Pman hasn't come up with a response after two days. Probably going to be a case of he said/she said, but I think those of us were around at the know the truth. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment
Pman Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 Hmm, can't help but notice that Pman hasn't come up with a response after two days. Probably going to be a case of he said/she said, but I think those of us were around at the know the truth. You want me to pull out 18 month old emails? I can do, but what will it achieve? Not a lot - and tbh I gave up caring a long time ago - I was just on the forum as someone pointed it out to me :) Have fun and be safe in the lockdown everyone. Link to comment
Buzzles Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 To the people picking fights with Pman, just bear in mind that Ells was the founder and majority shareholder of the company, effectively the man in control, and he was responsible for the majority of the Hawk development cycle. With that in mind, you may want to adjust your sights. At least Pman's not vanished into the night. Fancy trying Star Citizen? Click here! Link to comment
cichlidfan Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 To the people picking fights with Pman, just bear in mind that Ells was the founder and majority shareholder of the company, effectively the man in control, and he was responsible for the majority of the Hawk development cycle. With that in mind, you may want to adjust your sights. At least Pman's not vanished into the night. It was not intended as a personal attack and if it was seen that way then I apologize. You are also correct that Ells is the most responsible for this mess although I have a feeling that certain people pushed him into putting more on his plate than he was capable of dealing with. In the end, it is what it is and it is unfixable. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment
M1Combat Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Why would they choose the route of not giving up the files to ED? I mean... I assume there were protections in place from ED where they wouldn't then just turn around and release the plane themselves to cut out the dev... or other fun crap like that... I know China, in manufacturing, often requires the company that their contracting manufacturing with to hand over all files and data required to build whatever they're building... then they sell that to other chinese companies (that they also own) to build whatever it is... But that's not really a thing here so... That doesn't make sense to me. I feel like there's more than meets the eye here. Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600 Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis) Link to comment
M1Combat Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Clearly... Kinda :). I'm curious though. What drove their decision to take their ball and go home, likely knowing what the political ramifications would be? Did they try to bluff ED and ED called them on it so they had no choice but to go home? Why would they even make the attempt? Did they have specific reason to mis-trust ED and what they might do with the source files? That seems unlikely... Did they have something to hide that would have been uncovered if they handed over the files to ED? I'm just curious. Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600 Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis) Link to comment
ED Team NineLine Posted June 8, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 8, 2020 This is way off topic for 2.5.3 or continued limited Hawk support we were allowed, closing this now. 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment
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