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Ka-50 Unguided Rockets Firing Possible Bug!


Murey2

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Damn BigNewy,

 

when did I get the Ka-50..back in 2012...and I never knew about that dial. Explains a lot of what I experienced.

 

I tell everybody to RTFM...and skipped it myself.

 

Shame shame shame on ME.

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Just to be sure are you setting your rockets up correctly for the compensation of recoil?

 

 

 

 

 

I think I selected the wrong program #2. in the manual it only speaks about the ballistics impact point not the recoil I'll do more testing and see if it ever accrue again under the right program.

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Perhaps, but helicopters are entirely without ground bracing and free to move under the influence of the back-thrust. You could move one like you could move a boat, except air is less viscous & so it would be eaisier (& you can move quite a big boat by hand).

 

 

Very smart comparing MLRS with rockets that weigh more and are larger to the rockets of the helicopter that are less than 1 percent of the size and weight!!! Well done.

 

 

 

 

The amount of recoil man! watch above. And enjoy. It's okay.


Edited by Murey2
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You clearly have not fired a "recoilless rifle" ;-)

And I give you an tip... IT RECOIL.

 

IT ain't as much as if tube would be closed, but it still kicks.

 

 

How about RPG7... Yeah it kicks but can't call that a recoil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not a big deal.

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Very smart comparing MLRS with rockets that weigh more and are larger to the rockets of the helicopter that are less than 1 percent of the size and weight!!! Well done.

The amount of recoil man! watch above. And enjoy. It's okay.

 

Not apples with apples though, Mi-25 & S-5's..

&

1/ doesn't matter how big the rocket it, it's how much surface area the exhaust gasses have to work on.

2/ Your video doesn't show a Ka-50, it shows Mi-24 with the rockets mounted in a completely different configuration.

 

I tried to explain why that made a difference before.

There's a competition shooting discipline that involves rapid firing 3 groups from a pistol from a standing position at 25m with one hand. 5 shots in 8, then 6, then 4 seconds.

 

They're only .22s, so the recoil's not great, but it's enough with a normal configuration (high barrel) to mean you have to aim again.

The Russians built the MTs3-1 Rekord with the barrel in line with the shooter's arm, so no flip-up on firing. Same amount of recoil, but a different alignment eliminated the tendency of the barrel to rise (actually it probably kicked 'down').

 

Watch this video slowly. At 4:00 an AH-1 fires a rocket from the left station and the aircraft is kicked into a yaw by the rocket launch.

OHdPxRka6y0

or watch the kick on the launcher here from 0:59

148PF_UZ5uo

Cheers.

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There is no recoil pushing the nose down IRL. Video of Ka-50 shooting 80mm rockets:

 

 

At around 3:50 mark you can see that Ka-50 shoots multiple rockets in flight.

Solid as a rock.

 

Are you serious? I think there could be people out there saying that the recoil counter Autotrim works perfectly on this one... ;)

 

The KA 50 has this system and the fact that it has this system is enough proof to me that there is actually recoil.

 

But..... Is the recoil of the Rockets simulated in DCS. So that the Helicopter over compensates because it's missing?

 

ISE

"Blyat Naaaaa" - Izlom

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Ok, I don't really know of that system. Only the ballistics adjustment knob behind the seat.

 

But here is another example. Different helicopter yes, but less advanced. Weight is in the ballpark with Ka-50. Solid as a rock with both 23mm and 80mm rockets.

 

 

The reason Im a bit sceptical to the current behaviour is that we have had this discussion before on the P-51 and F-86 modules. There used to be a lot of recoil shooting rockets. But after long discussion on forums about physics, old videos and even the question asked to Chuck Yeager (!) himself, it was later changed to what we have now.

 

I might be wrong about this, but I have not yet seen 1 IRL video where fighter or helicopter suffer recoil when shooting from rocketpods.

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Just thinking out-loud here.

Rockets are fired from pods (No Back on pods / pressure on craft) and drive themselves away, so very little recoil if any. Where a large gun would generate more pressure on the aircraft.

 

Edit

attachment.php?attachmentid=222780&stc=1&d=1576068047

393591827_NoBackPressure.thumb.jpg.246d06eefdc50d36c884f03533756190.jpg


Edited by David OC

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I posted a couple of RL videos of just that on the previous page.

 

Looks pretty solid to me :huh: Maybe a little bit of pilot induced movement, but hard to tell at distance with handheld cam. If possible try find videos with camera mounted inside or outside of helicopter.

 

Also, how would these rockets create recoil? It blows straight through the pod. Only thing I can think of is changing weight distribution or rocket exhaust-gasses...

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Also, how would these rockets create recoil? It blows straight through the pod. Only thing I can think of is changing weight distribution or rocket exhaust-gasses...

Expanding exhaust gasses traveling backwards at a significant speed. They are NOT distributed one-dimensionaly (straight back), but expand and "grabbing hold of" the walls of the tube. When the rocket end leaves the tube the entire pod becomes a wall the gasses pushes on.

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Expanding exhaust gasses traveling backwards at a significant speed. They are NOT distributed one-dimensionaly (straight back), but expand and "grabbing hold of" the walls of the tube. When the rocket end leaves the tube the entire pod becomes a wall the gasses pushes on.

 

You think there would be enough pressure here to move (Recoil) 5+ tons of moving helicopter with a small rocket.

I don't see it myself.

 

 

2.75 Ton OH-58

 

Right hand side rocket fire only

 

0:25

 


Edited by David OC

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You think there would be enough pressure here to move (Recoil) 5+ tons of moving helicopter with a small rocket.

The mas of the helicopter doesn't have much relevance actually. It is basikaly hanging loose on a "frictionless" cushion of air and making it yaw doesn't require much force (without various stab systems doing their thing, also consider the KA-50 being coaxial without the need of anti-torque tail rotor). Let's say you are hovering 1m above the ground, the yaw (heading) AP turned off, a single guy on the ground could push on the tail (or one pylon) and it would turn accordingly (not a comfortable place to be standing, in the worst downwash, but that's another question). The leverage you get from the relative position on which the force is applied does also have a pronounced effect.

Lethal accidents have happened where helicopters are about to pick up personnel while in a hover, and a person entering the helicopter have done it unannounced and ruthlessly (putting the entire body weight on the step instantly). This makes the helicopter (weighing some tons) tilt to the side because the pilot wasn't prepared and couldn't counter the sudden tilt. A different movement but working by the same principles.

About the OH-58, for what I know it has pretty fancy stabilization systems on board and I would guess it has some functionality to counter yaw due to rocket recoil (just guessing).

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The mas of the helicopter doesn't have much relevance actually. It is basikaly hanging loose on a "frictionless" cushion of air and making it yaw doesn't require much force (without various stab systems doing their thing, also consider the KA-50 being coaxial without the need of anti-torque tail rotor). Let's say you are hovering 1m above the ground, the yaw (heading) AP turned off, a single guy on the ground could push on the tail (or one pylon) and it would turn accordingly (not a comfortable place to be standing, in the worst downwash, but that's another question). The leverage you get from the relative position on which the force is applied does also have a pronounced effect.

Lethal accidents have happened where helicopters are about to pick up personnel while in a hover, and a person entering the helicopter have done it unannounced and ruthlessly (putting the entire body weight on the step instantly). This makes the helicopter (weighing some tons) tilt to the side because the pilot wasn't prepared and couldn't counter the sudden tilt. A different movement but working by the same principles.

About the OH-58, for what I know it has pretty fancy stabilization systems on board and I would guess it has some functionality to counter yaw due to rocket recoil (just guessing).

 

 

I get what your saying about a hovering aircraft. This was a discussion about a large moving (Recommended speed) helicopter firing self propelled rockets.

 

f48f1831dc017a26cc25ba391649c27a--helicopters-motor.jpg

 

and the recoil this has on the craft. I still cannot see these light weight rockets having a recoil impact on yawing the helicopter.

At this speed even the pedals are very or ineffective on yaw.

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...

 

Well, I used the hovering example to illustrate that you don't always need high forces to make something heavy to move. You focus to much on the weight. According to OP the movement discussed is the tilting (pitch, but essentially the same as the bank as in my embarrassing example), not yaw. Even if firing rockets from one side only has to have an effect on yaw too.

 

About your argument about rocket weight. Do you remember this: F=a*m? Force equal to acceleration times mass, Newton's second law.

Then we have the third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

I'm sure you already know all this, just mention it as a refresher and for reference.

 

Now, how fast is the rocket accelerating while leaving the tube? Like a fully loaded truck and trailer? Na, not really. Can you see the rocket when it's leaving the (rather short) tube (looking from the side)? The fire flash and smoke yes, but not really the rocket it self.

Even if the rocket might be relatively lightweight, the force will be high due to its acceleration.

The force backwards exerted on the exhaust gasses are, as I already mentioned, not distributed straight back one-dimensionaly, but since the gasses wants to expand laterally a rather high amount of the force will be exerted lengthwise on the walls of the tube by friction. How high amount? Half? More? Less? Hard to tell, but it's there and most likely higher than you might think.

Then we have the effect when the rocket has just left the tube entirely. The gasses will exert force on the pod. How much? Depends. If the rocket was fired from a tube close to the outer wall of the pod, roughly half the exhaust gasses will pas outside the pod, but if it's fired from close to the pod center all of the gasses hit the pod. Is the pod fuly loaded effectively making it a wall, or empty tubes?

Which one of these two steps are the most pronounced, if not equal, is hard to tell. But a most likely noticeable force will be exerted on the aircraft, standing still or at speed.

 

My contribution to the discussion is only about the physical plausibility of a recoil, not about possible systems countering it or whether we have a bug in DCS or not.

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I get what your saying about a hovering aircraft. This was a discussion about a large moving (Recommended speed) helicopter firing self propelled rockets.

 

f48f1831dc017a26cc25ba391649c27a--helicopters-motor.jpg

 

and the recoil this has on the craft. I still cannot see these light weight rockets having a recoil impact on yawing the helicopter.

At this speed even the pedals are very or ineffective on yaw.

 

 

Agree 100% with you David.

 

 

The effect of a small rocket on any attack helo is small to negligible.

 

 

 

Do rockets generate recoil? Yes of course, but it's relative to the size /weight/stability of the helo vs the size of the rocket.

 

 

I ask this question, how on earth did hueys & cobras fire salvos of rockets in the vietnam war without computerized/augmented flight stability systems?

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Well, I used the hovering example to illustrate that you don't always need high forces to make something heavy to move. You focus to much on the weight. According to OP the movement discussed is the tilting (pitch, but essentially the same as the bank as in my embarrassing example), not yaw. Even if firing rockets from one side only has to have an effect on yaw too.

 

About your argument about rocket weight. Do you remember this: F=a*m? Force equal to acceleration times mass, Newton's second law.

Then we have the third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

I'm sure you already know all this, just mention it as a refresher and for reference.

 

Now, how fast is the rocket accelerating while leaving the tube? Like a fully loaded truck and trailer? Na, not really. Can you see the rocket when it's leaving the (rather short) tube (looking from the side)? The fire flash and smoke yes, but not really the rocket it self.

Even if the rocket might be relatively lightweight, the force will be high due to its acceleration.

The force backwards exerted on the exhaust gasses are, as I already mentioned, not distributed straight back one-dimensionaly, but since the gasses wants to expand laterally a rather high amount of the force will be exerted lengthwise on the walls of the tube by friction. How high amount? Half? More? Less? Hard to tell, but it's there and most likely higher than you might think.

Then we have the effect when the rocket has just left the tube entirely. The gasses will exert force on the pod. How much? Depends. If the rocket was fired from a tube close to the outer wall of the pod, roughly half the exhaust gasses will pas outside the pod, but if it's fired from close to the pod center all of the gasses hit the pod. Is the pod fuly loaded effectively making it a wall, or empty tubes?

Which one of these two steps are the most pronounced, if not equal, is hard to tell. But a most likely noticeable force will be exerted on the aircraft, standing still or at speed.

 

My contribution to the discussion is only about the physical plausibility of a recoil, not about possible systems countering it or whether we have a bug in DCS or not.

 

 

A: Dropping a bomb stationed on the wing from a F-18, F-16 (whatever ) has an effect on the weight distribution ie you need to trim afterward. Firing rockets from the same platform has little to no effect on the airframe.

 

 

B: Basic newtons laws are understood here, please no need to explain. :megalol:

 

 

C: Firing a maverick from an F-16/F-18 etc gives no recoil.. Yes the thrust/exhaust gases are expanding into atmosphere, same is 80% (ish true) with a rocket. But a maverick is huge compared to the small size of a rocket.

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I ask this question, how on earth did hueys & cobras fire salvos of rockets in the vietnam war without computerized/augmented flight stability systems?

I say not needed at all (as historically proven). The recoil effect on yaw is to high extent canceled at speed, yes, more so on fastmovers. Rockets are no precision weapons, effect on pitch can be counted for by aiming routines.

 

A: Dropping a bomb stationed on the wing from a F-18, F-16 (whatever ) has an effect on the weight distribution ie you need to trim afterward. Firing rockets from the same platform has little to no effect on the airframe.

Yes, they are lighter. So? The acceleration and hence the force is still high. Bombs are heavy yes, but you just drop them. Apples and oranges... both good fruit...

 

B: Basic newtons laws are understood here, please no need to explain. :megalol:

That's why I said I mentioned it as a reminder and reference.... :megalol:

 

C: Firing a maverick from an F-16/F-18 etc gives no recoil.. Yes the thrust/exhaust gases are expanding into atmosphere, same is 80% (ish true) with a rocket. But a maverick is huge compared to the small size of a rocket.

On a fastmover the pod is placed close to where the lifting forces are generated (wing), redusing the recoil leverage on pitch. On helicopters it's a different matter.

 

 

 

I have now vented my thoughts on the matter. Please continue as you like.


Edited by Holton181

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But a maverick is huge compared to the small size of a rocket.

 

But you fire several S-8 at a time...

 

An AGM-65 weighs 200 kg - 300 kg

 

An S-8 missile weighs 11.5 kg

A pod holds 20 rockets. 4 pods carry 80.

 

A 'long' salvo firing half each pod would remove 4*10*11.5 = 460 kg from the aircraft.

That would change the trim at any speed.

 

(on the M-8, setting salvo at 16 rockets per pod & stations 1-2-5-6 would remove 730 kg in a couple of seconds. Again, you'd expect some trim change.)

 

On the subject of mavericks - at 1:59 in this video an AGM-65 is launched, and then the view switches to a mounted camera looking forward. If you pause and use the , & . keys to move back and forwards you can see the helicopter nose drop as the missile is launched..

HeLgLsM0eKg

Cheers.

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You focus to much on the weight. According to OP the movement discussed is the tilting (pitch, but essentially the same as the bank as in my embarrassing example), not yaw. Even if firing rockets from one side only has to have an effect on yaw too.

 

 

That's even worse for this discussion, now these rockets rotate the helicopter around the roll axis. Then you go on and talk about Newton's law and how weight doesn't have much relevance.

 

 

The mas of the helicopter doesn't have much relevance actually.

 

 

How is this small / basically straight Down the longitudinal axis jet blast forcing the rotation of a helicopter against a very large flying disk?

 

Now does the weight hanging off the bottom of this (OH58) 35 ft of blades help stabilize any force here.... How does a helicopter roll around it's axis.

 

About your argument about rocket weight. Do you remember this: F=a*m? Force equal to acceleration times mass, Newton's second law.

Then we have the third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

I'm sure you already know all this, just mention it as a refresher and for reference.

 

My contribution to the discussion is only about the physical plausibility of a recoil, not about possible systems countering it or whether we have a bug in DCS or not.

 

 

exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

I'm sure you already know all this, just mention it as a refresher and for reference.

 

 

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=222880&stc=1&d=1576232460

 

Seeing you are giving us a bit of a lecture on Newton's law.

 

Where is this main force with a rocket in the picture above and how is this rolling the helicopter. Up or Down to turn left or right? Is it pushing down or up here?

 

Helicopter rolling means there is either a up or down large force correct? The tube is round. You would have more of a chance sticking with yawing the helicopter I think.

128201-rocket-pod.jpg.458e656ed882fd40c86bbf8a11c53c70.jpg

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attachment.php?attachmentid=222880&stc=1&d=1576232460

Bugger! You got me back her. Oh well...

Originally the diskussion was about strange behavior of the helicopter, stab systems at play or not, bug or not. Then quickly turned into a discussion about physics. Yes, it's all about physics now. How could it be otherwise? If you don't want to discuss physics it will be very difficult for you to get a good understanding of the matter.

 

Not at my computer at the moment so can't edit the picture. But move the top arrow to the top of the picture, and there you have (part of) the leverage arm causing the pitching of the helicopter. Another part of the arm essentially extend vertically from top of the picture to center of gravity of the helicopter.

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attachment.php?attachmentid=222880&stc=1&d=1576232460

 

Helicopter rolling means there is either a up or down large force correct? The tube is round. You would have more of a chance sticking with yawing the helicopter I think.

 

Bugger! You got me back her. Oh well...

Originally the diskussion was about strange behavior of the helicopter, stab systems at play or not, bug or not. Then quickly turned into a discussion about physics. Yes, it's all about physics now. How could it be otherwise? If you don't want to discuss physics it will be very difficult for you to get a good understanding of the matter.

 

Not at my computer at the moment so can't edit the picture. But move the top arrow to the top of the picture, and there you have (part of) the leverage arm causing the pitching of the helicopter. Another part of the arm essentially extend vertically from top of the picture to center of gravity of the helicopter.

 

"causing the pitching of the helicopter."

 

Just let me know if this is pitching the helicopter up or down as it comes out of the tube. Edit, just remember you said it's not a about yaw, so it's off the table right.

 

 

The mas of the helicopter doesn't have much relevance actually. It is basikaly hanging loose on a "frictionless" cushion of air and making it yaw doesn't require much force (without various stab systems doing their thing, also consider the KA-50 being coaxial without the need of anti-torque tail rotor).

 

Weigh is represented here with the letter G hehe.

 

"In a very basic sense, the helicopter's main rotor does what wings and a propeller do for a fixed-wing aircraft."

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=222883&stc=1&d=1576236414

 

So how much force (Down or up) do you think it would take to roll this flying wing with recoil.

AerodynamicsUH.jpg.ef7ac7e70d3cc69ef38f858d1d92365e.jpg


Edited by David OC

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"causing the pitching of the helicopter."

 

Just let me know if this is pitching the helicopter up or down as it comes out of the tube. Edit, just remember you said it's not a about yaw, so it's off the table right.

 

Down obviously. As in the video shared by Weta43 above. Yes, OP describe a pitch up, some said it being due to buggs, others it beings caused by systems to counter the recoil.

After that the discussion has been about the existence of recoil at all. Thats where I come in. I have no idea why the DCS KA-50 pitch up, and frankly I don't care much about it, being a low precision weapon.

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Down obviously. As in the video shared by Weta43 above. Yes, OP describe a pitch up, some said it being due to buggs, others it beings caused by systems to counter the recoil.

After that the discussion has been about the existence of recoil at all. Thats where I come in. I have no idea why the DCS KA-50 pitch up, and frankly I don't care much about it, being a low precision weapon.

 

All good Holton181,

 

The way I see it that there would be a small recoil, like when you hover and fire rockets in the Ka-50, not tried the UH1H. The reason helicopters use speed for escape maneuvers and it would also negate this very small recoil / pendulum effect (When slow).

 

It's interesting tho, like to here from an expert that has flow and fired rockets from a chopper. We may get the chance here. This is being very tested by the experts.

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