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Gazelle change log


Pat01

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The impact on CG is directly proportional to the distance from the fuel tank to CG point of the aircraft. It's like the tank is on a lever. The further the tank is the longer the lever arm and the more impact fuel level has on CG In practical terms the tank is so close to the CG that the lever arm is very short and has little impact on CG until it gets very close to empty. That's why the tankage is placed where it is.

 

AOG

 

 

 

Okay just to understand this better and that sounds about right if there were no other loads in the aircraft as you say negligible change to CG because of different states of fuel level. Presume that is a design feature placing the fuel tank at that location.

 

 

 

However I'm trying to work this out for flight conditions and assuming the weight of pilot and weapons officer is say 180Kg.

 

The forward weight of the pilot and weapons officer do not change and has a fairly long lever arm from their position to datum so going from say 350Kg of fuel to 50kg of fuel should make the CG move forward with subsequent aft adjustment of cyclic required to maintain level flight more so as more fuel is burned.

 

However I don't see this occur. Or at least if it does that magic centring cyclic obscures a lot of feel in flight conditions.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Well, some differences are definitely there.

 

 

It feels more solid when holding a steep bank while turning. Pedals are still required for making coordinated turns. I think some IRL pilots on here have claimed that is not usually the case in real life - that pedals aren't really used much in high speed turns. Not sure if that's true, would be interesting to know...

 

 

The collective response is different, and is now clearly coupled with roll/pitch behavior (dropping collective makes the chopper drop nose and to the right, if IRC).

 

 

I don't notice too much ground effect difference, but the tendency to slide around on the ground seems to have come back - don't know if that's related.

 

 

The main gripes I always had with it are still there:

 

 

1) centered cyclic that just gets jerked around and quickly returned to center to avoid over-correcting.

 

 

2)sluggish response to cyclic inputs. When in hover, attitude changes are delayed by at least a half second from the cyclic input. This seems off for a light helicopter.

 

 

I'm glad to see some improvements being made though. I hope they continue, and are not minor.

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Well, some differences are definitely there.

 

 

It feels more solid when holding a steep bank while turning. Pedals are still required for making coordinated turns. I think some IRL pilots on here have claimed that is not usually the case in real life - that pedals aren't really used much in high speed turns. Not sure if that's true, would be interesting to know...

 

 

The collective response is different, and is now clearly coupled with roll/pitch behavior (dropping collective makes the chopper drop nose and to the right, if IRC).

 

 

I don't notice too much ground effect difference, but the tendency to slide around on the ground seems to have come back - don't know if that's related.

 

 

The main gripes I always had with it are still there:

 

 

1) centered cyclic that just gets jerked around and quickly returned to center to avoid over-correcting.

 

 

2)sluggish response to cyclic inputs. When in hover, attitude changes are delayed by at least a half second from the cyclic input. This seems off for a light helicopter.

 

 

I'm glad to see some improvements being made though. I hope they continue, and are not minor.

 

to 1, this is a helicopter and in general helicopters are flown with a 3 finger grip in reallife. you will have to counteract the forces applied, so a fast roll needs a counterroll input to stop newtons laws to act on the disc.

I hope i did understand your number 1 correct and could maybe shine a bit light into this.

 

nb2 has 2 very simple factors influencing this. mechanical delay and inertia. even a mass in rest has an inertia. hard to believe but it does. forces like that cause a felt minimal delay plus even if lift is built up on the blades, inertia, gravity and some other forces have to be overcome. in addition the blades are flexible which mean that even there you will have a slight delay by the forces acting to the cabin cause they will act on the blades first and bend, coning, them which needs a few miliseconds too. all these factors adding up will result in a stack of effects that result in that felt delay.

 

i hate to compare the huey, but there such a delay is way more pronounced and even other factors like the underslung non articulated blades add to this effect.

 

I hope this might have helped a bit to understand this effect.


Edited by borchi_2b
autocorrect on phone
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to 1, this is a helicopter and in general helicopters are flown with a 3 finger grip in reallife. you will have to counteract the forces applied, so a fast roll. needs a counterroll input. to stop. newtons laws to act on the disc.

I hope. i did understand your number 1 correct and could maybe shine a bit. light into this.

 

nb2 has 2 very simple factors influencing this. mechanical delay and inertia. even a mass in rest has an inertia. hard to believe but it does. forces like. that cause.a felt minimal delay plus even if lift is. built up. on the blades, inertia, gravity and. some other forces have to be overcome. in addition the blades are flexible which mean that even there you will have a slight delay by the forces actiblng to the cabin cause th3y will act on the blades first and bend them which needs a few miliseconds too. all these factor adding up will result in a stack of effecte that. result. in that felt delay.

 

i hate compare the huey, but there such a delay is way more pronounced and even other factors like the underslung non articulated blades add to this effect.

 

I hope this might have helped a bit to understand this effect.

 

 

Thanks for the in-depth reply.

 

 

The Huey (hey you brought it up! lol) does not require this re-centering/counter acting of every cyclic input.

 

 

Is this due to fundamental differences in the blade systems?

 

 

I posted youtube videos of the gazelle cyclic in action, and it didn't behave the way it does in your sim. When accelerating, the cyclic moves to a new forward position and stays there, or stays to the side when turning. Im sure a degree of counter acting is realistic, but the overall dynamics don't match up with the video evidence...

 

 

I understand there would be some delay due to inertia (object at rest stays at rest, blade flex, etc.), it just seems like the degree is off. The heli seems to behave like a much heavier helicopter. I would guess a 500 ms delay between input and reaction.

 

 

The original flight model was nice and snappy in this regard.

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I'd like to explore the lag your experiencing in as much as when hovering I watch the position of the cab against the world (I don't look at a fixed point anymore) if I detect a slight relative movement I apply a short blip of the cyclic <or other required inputs> to correct the error for the unwanted movement. Now if I catch the error quick enough the reaction starts almost immediately but the result will take a short time to fully manifest itself so there is lag but it's kinda like predicting the input required apply the correction and it happens. You need to kind of think at 2 time frames the now and the in a second or two in the future time frames.

 

If you let the error build and don't correct it quickly or over correct you will need to use more input to correct which tends to become a perpetually correcting your corrections situation which will feel like there is a huge amount of lag.

 

 

This also works for the Gazelle as well the other DCS helis are similar but have different and longer input to reaction times and the more mass the more the inputs are averaged.


Edited by FragBum
<edit>

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I flew a little time yesterday and was mostly happy with the improvements. Today, however, I spent hour upon frustrating hour with it trying to get a consistent focus on what it was that continues to bother me. It is easier now. But it still feels odd. The requirement to apply a counter input after an input is still there. This alone doesn't make flying it very hard but it does require concentration. I find that at max gross weights that the same power setting that is needed for level flight at a steady 200 kph will also work in a 45 degree bank, level, at a steady 200. Given the loss of vertical component of lift, this seems miraculous. Also (in 1.5.7) I found that the force trim would sometimes work, sometimes not and other times displace the cyclic in a direction exactly opposite the displacement from the previously trimmed position. Blip trim also (sometimes) displaces the cyclic opposite the direction of trim. Can someone explain how autohover works with "PA" annunciated and all channels off? I want to love this little machine. It is a nimble little sniper with great potential. But it needs attention beyond the nips and tucks that occasional changes are capable of providing.

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- Corrected Zbias issues at Saturn radio and RWR

- Corrected Auto-Hover

- Corrected NADIR Polar function

- Corrected Camera target magnetic heading display

 

Does that mean the "Z-fighting" issues with the background lighting, blue/red" are corrected?

 

Also, I wanted to say that I really like how this thing feels now. The gazelle now has neat characteristics in the ground effect. It has that neat thing that some helos have that make it possible to hover and taxi then accelerate to "take/lift off." Very much a fun thing to fly now!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Also (in 1.5.7) I found that the force trim would sometimes work, sometimes not and other times displace the cyclic in a direction exactly opposite the displacement from the previously trimmed position.

 

1.5.7 hasn't been updated yet.

Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro

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I find that at max gross weights that the same power setting that is needed for level flight at a steady 200 kph will also work in a 45 degree bank, level, at a steady 200. Given the loss of vertical component of lift, this seems miraculous.

 

But isn't there a component of centrifugal force at play here and input energy is trying to maintain flying in a circle and no longer in a straight line. I find I can sustain this effect in the Mi8 @200kph for some revolutions but eventually I need to add more power to sustain it or bug out, much the same as the Gazelle although I find the Gazelle better at around 160kph. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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The Gazelle was the first helicopter in the world to be certified for single-pilot IFR. Many of the world's armies either bought it as a trainer or converted it for training use later. It is stable and forgiving. The DCS version is unforgiving and unpredictable. And this isn't because it is small. Compared to helicopters I have flown, it is huge. But they were far more predictable. Some of this can be attributed to the cheap sticks most of us use. But that limitation has been overcome in other modules and other sims.

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The Gazelle was the first helicopter in the world to be certified for single-pilot IFR. Many of the world's armies either bought it as a trainer or converted it for training use later. It is stable and forgiving. The DCS version is unforgiving and unpredictable. And this isn't because it is small. Compared to helicopters I have flown, it is huge. But they were far more predictable. Some of this can be attributed to the cheap sticks most of us use. But that limitation has been overcome in other modules and other sims.

 

Okay agree the Gazelle has some nice traits but there are some disappointments.

 

Centric cyclic action. inputs /reaction missing??

 

IGE is seemingly guess work compared to an R44 with wind??

 

Skate-ish behaviour??

 

Pitch setting unstable. Why? Roll seems okay??

 

Plants seem to rotate when you approach them, odd??

 

Sinks into ground effect or rather through it??

 

Odd interface to the world surfaces think skid ground??

 

There's more :D

 

 

As far as control inputs I think even what I have is acceptable.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Hi Gents,

2.1.1 has been updated today, and 1.5.7 should be updated next week.

 

Oh, the joys of unpredictable ED release schedule.

 

Well, maybe next week we will have more luck. And there's still chance for Friday...

Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro

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Oh, the joys of unpredictable ED release schedule.

 

Well, maybe next week we will have more luck. And there's still chance for Friday...

 

 

Ahh bugger, one of my Sqn can’t fly in 2.0 so we are still only using 1.5 at the moment. I was looking forward to testing these changes. I wonder if I can convince him to suffer low FPS just for me. ;)

 

Cowboy10uk

 

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Fighter pilots make movies, Attack pilots make history, Helicopter pilots make heros.

 

:pilotfly: Corsair 570x Crystal Case, Intel 8700K O/clocked to 4.8ghz, 32GB Vengeance RGB Pro DDR4 3200 MHZ Ram, 2 x 1TB M2 drives, 2 x 4TB Hard Drives, Nvidia EVGA GTX 1080ti FTW, Maximus x Hero MB, H150i Cooler, 6 x Corsair LL120 RGB Fans And a bloody awful Pilot :doh:

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I did some more testing this time between 1.5.7. and 2.1.1. the new version is this most definitely a step in the right direction. :thumbup:

 

Although DCS does not make this easy! Seems 1.5.7. needs a PC restart between running the 2 versions which makes difficult to go back an forth.

 

One thing I did find is the (old) 1.5.7.ver does indeed feel sterile compared to the 2.1.1. and after several+ hours stick time I really don't want to go back. Those mostly subtle changes do make the Gazelle feel better.

 

Our beloved Gazelle must be one of the most critically examined aircraft in the DCS world which must make it so difficult for the developers however I must say the guys are doing a great job and I think (especially for me) a little more patience on our behalf will go a long way to moving forward.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Very much worthwhile IMHO.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Changes are very pleasant(amazing)! Now in the hands there is a feeling that helicopter, though small, weighs 2100 kg. He became "alive" and realistic, in consequence of which manage them easier.

Thank you so much!

Sorry my bad english.

GreyCat_SPb

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Did a quick test flight today. I dont think i notice any difference. It still has a strong pendulum effect when trying to hold a bank, like a spring trying to recenter it all the time. Very hard to hold a bank without it either pitching strongly up then heavy nose down when rolling out. Maby my version on steam has not been fixed yet (1.5.7) this is how i remember my first version behaved.

 

Edit: FM folder in game directory shows latest change 2017-07-24


Edited by Hoffster
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