Best dog fighting move in a F-16 from a true F-16 pilot

(check the comments, not the video)

By Nimrod

Ex F16 pilot here; yeah at slow speed your limited at aoa for nose pointing, but rolling scissors all the way baby????

But you don’t want to be slow speed anyway

Best technique is at the merge full G straight up over the top.

Best thing your enemy can do is match that and you meet head on again. If he doesn’t he’s toast because you are coming over the top and gravity is helping only thing you have to do is roll inside his turn radius and set up for the kill

My takeaways:

F-16 has decent T/W ratio and energy retention in the vertical to pull these Immelman-like moves consecutively. An enemy can do the same maneuver but it will run out of energy earlier and quit the maneuver and go downwards. The gravity and F-16's superior roll rate can help it to roll inside the enemy's turning circle.

there is no sets of moves or single maneuver could win the Dogfight, if you have such experience, it means the enemy didn`t know how to fight.

Youtobe is a great thing. someone upload the Art of Kill long time ago, it was the the instructional video on 1v1 dogfight by a F16 IP. I think it is more useful than just someone said : This move will let you win.

there is no sets of moves or single maneuver could win the Dogfight, if you have such experience, it means the enemy didn`t know how to fight.

 

Youtobe is a great thing. someone upload the Art of Kill long time ago, it was the the instructional video on 1v1 dogfight by a F16 IP. I think it is more useful than just someone said : This move will let you win.

If anyone is wondering what that is, see here:

The favorite move should be the "slice" according to Pete Bonanni

The quickest way to get your nose around on the bandit is by initiating a lead turn slice into the bandit. To do this maneuver, start an immediate 8 G lead turn into the bandit with your nose about 10° below the horizon when the line-of-sight rate of the bandit starts to increase. By pulling around with your nose low, you will gain the use of gravity which will preserve your airspeed and increase your effective turn rate.

"The slice is one of the Viper (F-16) pilot’s favorite moves. The reason is simple. The F-16 can out-turn anything in the sky, so a big lead turn executed nose-low will intimidate the bandit. After completing the turn, you will have gained angles on the bandit and still have plenty of energy for the next turn. The disadvantage of the slice is that it is a high-G, nose-low maneuver that places the bandit at deep six and out of sight momentarily. This is not too big a disadvantage if you know where to look for him as you come out of the turn"

I would think that there is no universal “best move”. A vertical climb that works in an F-16 carrying 50% fuel and 2 AAMs at 800 knots vs an SU-27 loaded with 8 AAMs at 400 knots might be perfect. Would it be something you want to do if your viper is at 80% fuel, carrying 6AAMs, at 400 knots and merging with a Mig 29 at 800 knots? If your F-16 is at an energy disadvantage against an aircraft (like a mig 29) with a small turn radius, then maybe a one-circle

Turn relying on high AoA to bring your nose around is best. Maybe not if your at low speed (300knots) vs an F-18

I don’t see how there can possibly be a universal “best move”. All situational based on your aircrafts loadout, energy and mission vs the other aircraft, it’s strengths, weaknesses and current flight characteristics.

I would think that there is no universal “best move”. A vertical climb that works in an F-16 carrying 50% fuel and 2 AAMs at 800 knots vs an SU-27 loaded with 8 AAMs at 400 knots might be perfect. Would it be something you want to do if your viper is at 80% fuel, carrying 6AAMs, at 400 knots and merging with a Mig 29 at 800 knots? If your F-16 is at an energy disadvantage against an aircraft (like a mig 29) with a small turn radius, then maybe a one-circle

Turn relying on high AoA to bring your nose around is best. Maybe not if your at low speed (300knots) vs an F-18

 

I don’t see how there can possibly be a universal “best move”. All situational based on your aircrafts loadout, energy and mission vs the other aircraft, it’s strengths, weaknesses and current flight characteristics.

So true!

Or in the words of Pete Bonanni himself:

Get between the the opponent and the sun.

The favorite move should be the "slice" according to Pete Bonanni

 

 

The quickest way to get your nose around on the bandit is by initiating a lead turn slice into the bandit. To do this maneuver, start an immediate 8 G lead turn into the bandit with your nose about 10° below the horizon when the line-of-sight rate of the bandit starts to increase. By pulling around with your nose low, you will gain the use of gravity which will preserve your airspeed and increase your effective turn rate.

 

 

"The slice is one of the Viper (F-16) pilot’s favorite moves. The reason is simple. The F-16 can out-turn anything in the sky, so a big lead turn executed nose-low will intimidate the bandit. After completing the turn, you will have gained angles on the bandit and still have plenty of energy for the next turn. The disadvantage of the slice is that it is a high-G, nose-low maneuver that places the bandit at deep six and out of sight momentarily. This is not too big a disadvantage if you know where to look for him as you come out of the turn"

Humor aside, trading in some potential to get your nose around is certainly a reasonable thing to do. Never heard it called a "slice" or a "move." Usually called a turn.

But more importantly, wtf am I watching? Why is this guy... I actually don't know what he's doing... but the audience and content? Is this like some 90s era recruiting or ROTC thing?

Also why is his duty uniform so tight? And... thin? I am confused.

Killer mustache though

... but the audience and content? Is this like some 90s era recruiting or ROTC thing?

 

Also why is his duty uniform so tight? And... thin? I am confused.

 

Killer mustache though

Blasphemy! ;)

It's for the old Falcon series. IIRC this came with a Special Edition of 3.0 from the early 90's. Pete Bonanni was a USAF Fighter Weapons IP who became one of the lead SME consultants for Spectrum Holobyte and Microprose. I have the book version of Art of the Kill and it's still very relevant. I think he was still a reserve F-16 pilot when this was produced but he didn't want to break any regs and took all his patches off. I have no idea who the audience is. Maybe some employees of Spectrum?

Pg. 93 "The Slice"

Pete Bonanni is a legend... with a moustache like that how could he not be.

Hehe that was some nostalgia from the first combat sim I played.

Brigadier General Peter A. Bonanni

A great book to read is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering from Robert L. Shaw. It covers everything.

As for the full G straight up over the top technique at the merge, best thing opponent can do is having a tighter turn radius, and you'll be a clear duck in the blue sky for his Fox 2.

Going Vertical at the merge make sense if your opponent can't follow.

But more importantly, wtf am I watching? Why is this guy... I actually don't know what he's doing... but the audience and content? Is this like some 90s era recruiting or ROTC thing?

 

Also why is his duty uniform so tight? And... thin? I am confused.

 

Killer mustache though

:D

I'm still a little confused, this is basically just a previous sim's "hey everyone, wags here?"

A great book to read is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering from Robert L. Shaw. It covers everything.

 

As for the full G straight up over the top technique at the merge, best thing opponent can do is having a tighter turn radius, and you'll be a clear duck in the blue sky for his Fox 2.

 

Going Vertical at the merge make sense if your opponent can't follow.

Thanks for the tip, was it in response to my comment? Not quite sure what you're referring to or describing given context (comment was very general, just climbing the corner of EM, e.g. Ps for rate)

I'm still a little confused, this is basically just a previous sim's "hey everyone, wags here?"

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip, was it in response to my comment? Not quite sure what you're referring to or describing given context (comment was very general, just climbing the corner of EM, e.g. Ps for rate)

I understand your confusion. Can't say why they chose this specific concept for the video,it was way before the age of youtube.

Maybe to make ppl feel like they were part of a class in basic BFM. Or they tried to bring a tiny bit of TopGun atmosphere into it (there is a vague similarity to the ACMI debriefing scene in the movie )

Anyway like Sn8ke wrote, he was the technical advisor to an early (at that time for PC groundbreaking ) sim and the manual,as well as this video was meant a basic introduction into some bfm concepts I guess.

Sure from todays viewpoint its looks dated and out of a place in some ways, but so do a lot of things.

Not sure wether this helps clearing up your confusion:)

Regards,

Snappy

Thanks for the tip, was it in response to my comment? Not quite sure what you're referring to or describing given context (comment was very general, just climbing the corner of EM, e.g. Ps for rate)

It was in response to the statement done in 1st post.

I'm still a little confused, this is basically just a previous sim's "hey everyone, wags here?"

No, unlike Wags Pete Bonnani was not part of the dev team nor a community manager and unlike Wags he was a real fighter pilot who served as a SME to the Falcon devs.

I understand your confusion. Can't say why they chose this specific concept for the video,it was way before the age of youtube.

 

Maybe to make ppl feel like they were part of a class in basic BFM. Or they tried to bring a tiny bit of TopGun atmosphere into it (there is a vague similarity to the ACMI debriefing scene in the movie )

 

Anyway like Sn8ke wrote, he was the technical advisor to an early (at that time for PC groundbreaking ) sim and the manual,as well as this video was meant a basic introduction into some bfm concepts I guess.

Sure from todays viewpoint its looks dated and out of a place in some ways, but so do a lot of things.

 

Not sure wether this helps clearing up your confusion:)

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

Definitely, thanks. I agree it’s cool, I watched more and like the focus on fundamentals and practical tools like visual cues, how turning room is explained, etc. Sorriest looking class of officers I’ve even seen though.

ED does a good job with the familiarization stuff, I think YouTube format is more flexible, can use tacview, in game footage, etc. Even better though— we have the sim. The a-10 missions have the practice/check ride part, but lack the instruction/study material. the aggressor campaigns just have bandit spawn out of nowhere, so no PADS/set-up for different sets or merges. We got people with the knowledge, docs, someone should make a campaign that combines the education material, training flights, checkrides- not sure how specific discussion items or debrief would work. I don’t know limits of mission creator, never actually made one.... so, maybe not possible. But I’m just talking basic stuff- formations, shackles, tac, in-place and cross turns, maneuvering, rejoins, most importantly all the sets and drills, including setups, not just high aspect 1v1 over and over (even then should be beam/ butterfly setups)...flat/rolling scissors and snapshot drills, 6k/9k perch sets, etc. maybe different visual pickups (forward vs dear quarter), lost sight... just need someone good at making campaigns to do all the work ;)

An advanced SEM would be awesome but don’t think AI is up to it

E-M chart does not provide enough info for vertical maneuvers. I thinks acceleration and climb chart are better.

Definitely, thanks. I agree it’s cool, I watched more and like the focus on fundamentals and practical tools like visual cues, how turning room is explained, etc. Sorriest looking class of officers I’ve even seen though.

 

ED does a good job with the familiarization stuff, I think YouTube format is more flexible, can use tacview, in game footage, etc. Even better though— we have the sim. The a-10 missions have the practice/check ride part, but lack the instruction/study material. the aggressor campaigns just have bandit spawn out of nowhere, so no PADS/set-up for different sets or merges. We got people with the knowledge, docs, someone should make a campaign that combines the education material, training flights, checkrides- not sure how specific discussion items or debrief would work. I don’t know limits of mission creator, never actually made one.... so, maybe not possible. But I’m just talking basic stuff- formations, shackles, tac, in-place and cross turns, maneuvering, rejoins, most importantly all the sets and drills, including setups, not just high aspect 1v1 over and over (even then should be beam/ butterfly setups)...flat/rolling scissors and snapshot drills, 6k/9k perch sets, etc. maybe different visual pickups (forward vs dear quarter), lost sight... just need someone good at making campaigns to do all the work ;)

 

An advanced SEM would be awesome but don’t think AI is up to it

Yes , fully agree with you on the training part. Right now it seems still hampered/ limited by the A.I. implementation/behavior.

A while ago I played a bit with the mission editor trying to create basic BFM setups, like you mentioned, a perch or butterfly setup. But so far no success as I couldn‘t get the A.I. to cooperate reliably (so that there a training / demo value) in these canned scenarios.

They seem to have a mind of their own, which is not bad per se, but unfortunately not much seems to be going in their minds...

Hopefully this gets improved in 2020. Or maybe someone with better skill in the mission editor is able to pull it off, I‘m far from an expert with it.

Regards,

Snappy

I’ve played some of Baltic’s stuff where a flight lead performs what appears to be very scripted specific maneuver based on a trigger of some sort. I assume it’s possible to have another aircraft fly a defined path or specific maneuver, but not, say, have an aircraft fly an adaptive path based on certain relative parameters (like range or angle off) or something like a conditional if/then flight path? If that is the case then things like butterfly set for HA should be doable as it’s just two turns, but that’s just more realistic training of the same HA BFM. Something like offensive 3k perch, where we would need AI to execute a correctly timed ditch and attempt a deck transition would almost definitely not be?

Big assumptions here about what’s possible or not, just making educated guesses based on what I’ve seen others make it do. I’m just thinking through various drills and the learning objectives, and what we’d need the AI to do to fly them correctly. I think you’re right, I suspect most would be difficult or impossible to do without more direct control of AI. Perhaps ED can?