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DCS WWII - Future


Krupi

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As the previous topic content happened to break a certain rule & was promptly deleted lets try and open the topic for discussion again, what is the future of DCS WWII (On a road to Nowhere)?

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My glass is half full.

 

DCS is like a good bottle of wine, or bottle of whiskey, or a cheese even. It takes the time it takes. We just get to get a zip of it during its process, and at times, well it might taste a bit like a kick in the teeth, but you can still taste all the good stuff, and just know that its on the road to greatness ;).

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

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At least for me, ED communicated pretty well what the future of DCS WW2 looks like.

 

We will get more AI planes included to the asset pack, a new damage model and more realistic AI dogfight maneuvers.

 

Not to forget a P-47, Me-262 and updated effects for flak.

 

But all these things need time to develop.

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I felt that way until VEAO (is it okay to talk about this?) pulled out, now I don't see any kind of roadmap. That is all I would like to hear/see from ED even if it is only a reassurance.

 

Come on Nirvi another two aircraft in terms of WWII doesn't really make for a good vision especially when one of them is another ultra late war luftwaffe kite.


Edited by Krupi

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  • ED Team

what, you think a 3rd party holds the key to the future of DCS WW2? It does not.

 

ED are still developing for WW2, more assets / more aircraft / more features are still to come

 

So whats with the negativity?

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As was stated on Klems thread before it was deleted he mentioned that his group had slowly transitioned to another sim the "one that shall not be named".

 

You can see this with the online numbers that have dropped rapidly of late. Regularly one could find 40-60 players on burning skies, last night it was only just in the double figures. Personally I see this as a gauge for what the community sees of the status quo, hence the "negativity".

 

I am also experiencing something similar to Klem, I get the feeling that things have stagnated in my own group.


Edited by Krupi

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Multiplayer plays a small part, numbers go up and down they have 3 maps to play with and loads of different aircraft. Most people don't exclusively fly WW2 and those that do are a hardcore group that is even smaller.

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I couldn't imagine why anybody would want to fly DCS WWII offline the AI is at best appalling (thanks to the current damage model).

 

The whole "muliplayer only plays a small part" is again just a reflection of the status of DCS. How else does one explain the larger online playerbase of other sims


Edited by Krupi

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  • ED Team

single player is larger than the multiplayer, that is just a fact of this situation.

 

DCS is still developing its WW2 content and it is still early days.

 

You either accept that or you don't, I don't think anything I say will change your point of view.

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That is why myself and others would like some sort of official vision of the future. We aren't new to DCS we all have accepted that it takes time however a bit of appreciation of what might be in the pipeline would help.

 

Going back to a 3rd party holding the key to the future of DCS WWII, I would argue that whomever is willing to create the required aircraft does and past the P-47 & Me262 we don't know ED's plans in this regards.

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I think ED have their hands full with the F/A-18 and Caucasus for 2.5 so work on damage models, ai, visibility, ww2 atc, ww2 radio calls will not be a priority.

 

ED has not shared any info about other WW2 maps being considered, so in my opinion Normandy will be the sole map in the foreseeable future.

 

We'll get more asset pack content and Normandy map optimizations though.

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ED - you are losing us

 

OK, I will try again and try to avoid rule 1.15 because this is important and deleting a post of this nature only offends a member who is trying to make a point and even warn ED of a problem. I hope ED will not use 1.15 or any other rule to silence a genuine concern. If you don't like what I say please at least leave a post to say why and close the thread and at least we will know where we stand.

 

My friends and I, like many other simmers, came to ED when you introduced WWII aircraft because of your reputation for high fidelity FMs and your new Edge graphics. Some of us have been with you much longer that that and have bought many models. Generally we were happy with the aircraft and looked forward very much to the Normandy map and the Spitfire in particular but there is now a huge problem for us. We come from many years of, and a variety of, WWII air combat sims. I am sure you will know what those were and are. They set the, now old, standards. Our huge problem with DCS is the state of the current WWII objects, particularly the Normandy map performance hit, the Spitfire LFMkIX handling problems and AI that continue to fly and fight for ten minutes or more when severely damaged to a point where an intelligent pilot would retire or bail out. Damage modelling is very average but we understand the immense amount of work to change that and we can live with it as it is. For those other problems we have been waiting a very long time for some promised updates that 'are being worked on' but with no end in sight and no meaningful word of progress. Meanwhile ED are putting major efforts into other new aircraft like the F/A-18C whilst the products we have paid for, even as early access, stagnate. Our frustration has been growing for months. I'm sure there are many long standing 'cold war' and generation 4/5 players who couldn't care less about older aircraft but the WWII community had high hopes of ED.

 

Such is their disappointment, some frustrated people are even suggesting that ED has lost interest in the WWII era and aircraft.

 

Last night I joined my friends online intending to find a MP WWII server or fly one of our Normandy missions with them. To my regret I found that all of them have now, out of frustration, bought another sim and they are not keen to fly in DCS as it stands.The reason I have not done the same is I just don't have the disk space, a problem that can only be resolved if I delete one of the, still, two DCS versions. Also I have invested in a dozen or so DCS models and I have worked hard on missions and campaigns only to see friends now disappearing over the horizon, at least for now. I can only hope they do not find other products too interesting. I know they would return if the problems were resolved before they become too entrenched somewhere else. However after years of MP with my friends I am not going to play on line without them, they are real life friends not just virtual acquaintances. I have to think hard now about going elsewhere.

 

These are genuine concerns. You really do risk losing many of us. I know of at least one other good-size group of players that feels exactly the same. We have lost patience with the 'being worked on' argument. ED need to give us some kind of official timescale and an outline of what we can expect regarding these problems and deliver what is outstanding.

Please will you do that?

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klem

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what, you think a 3rd party holds the key to the future of DCS WW2? It does not.

 

ED are still developing for WW2, more assets / more aircraft / more features are still to come

 

So whats with the negativity?

Because we don't know whats the state of those things. We just know that ED is "working on them". Will ED develop more aircraft? Will we get some twin-engine bombers? Will we get some dive bombers? Will we get some variety? What is the future?!

 

Many of us, WW2 simmers, fly since early 2000's and to us 4 fighter planes with some AI units do not make for a very comeplling experience. Even if we get 6 planes it is not good enough. And not to mention that we payed hard earned buck for it. ED has one of the more expensive WW2 experiences and shows lots of flaws and they seem to take forever to be adressed. The DM alone is beeing worked on so long that you could create a full indie game during that time.

 

For many VEAO was the future of WW2, even if that was undeserved, as they had a great WW2 collection of planes to be developed in the future. We are all waiting for someone to announce some Tempest/Typhoon, Mosquito, P-38, Spit XIV, A-20, Ju-87, Hs-129, Me-410, Fw190A8, Bf109G6. To create some variety in air combat and make it feel alive and more period correct. And that is just for the one Normandy theatre.

 

I wanted to get all the WW2 planes when they get out, but have put that on hold, because I am not satisfied with the product and I will not invest into something that might not get better soon and seems to have no future planed. :cry:


Edited by Solty
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  • ED Team
OK, I will try again and try to avoid rule 1.15 because this is important and deleting a post of this nature only offends a member who is trying to make a point and even warn ED of a problem. I hope ED will not use 1.15 or any other rule to silence a genuine concern. If you don't like what I say please at least leave a post to say why and close the thread and at least we will know where we stand.

 

My friends and I, like many other simmers, came to ED when you introduced WWII aircraft because of your reputation for high fidelity FMs and your new Edge graphics. Some of us have been with you much longer that that and have bought many models. Generally we were happy with the aircraft and looked forward very much to the Normandy map and the Spitfire in particular but there is now a huge problem for us. We come from many years of, and a variety of, WWII air combat sims. I am sure you will know what those were and are. They set the, now old, standards. Our huge problem with DCS is the state of the current WWII objects, particularly the Normandy map performance hit, the Spitfire LFMkIX handling problems and AI that continue to fly and fight for ten minutes or more when severely damaged to a point where an intelligent pilot would retire or bail out. Damage modelling is very average but we understand the immense amount of work to change that and we can live with it as it is. For those other problems we have been waiting a very long time for some promised updates that 'are being worked on' but with no end in sight and no meaningful word of progress. Meanwhile ED are putting major efforts into other new aircraft like the F/A-18C whilst the products we have paid for, even as early access, stagnate. Our frustration has been growing for months. I'm sure there are many long standing 'cold war' and generation 4/5 players who couldn't care less about older aircraft but the WWII community had high hopes of ED.

 

Such is their disappointment, some frustrated people are even suggesting that ED has lost interest in the WWII era and aircraft.

 

Last night I joined my friends online intending to find a MP WWII server or fly one of our Normandy missions with them. To my regret I found that all of them have now, out of frustration, bought another sim and they are not keen to fly in DCS as it stands.The reason I have not done the same is I just don't have the disk space, a problem that can only be resolved if I delete one of the, still, two DCS versions. Also I have invested in a dozen or so DCS models and I have worked hard on missions and campaigns only to see friends now disappearing over the horizon, at least for now. I can only hope they do not find other products too interesting. I know they would return if the problems were resolved before they become too entrenched somewhere else. However after years of MP with my friends I am not going to play on line without them, they are real life friends not just virtual acquaintances. I have to think hard now about going elsewhere.

 

These are genuine concerns. You really do risk losing many of us. I know of at least one other good-size group of players that feels exactly the same. We have lost patience with the 'being worked on' argument. ED need to give us some kind of official timescale and an outline of what we can expect regarding these problems and deliver what is outstanding.

Please will you do that?

 

 

 

It takes time, it is that simple

 

ED are still developing and all of the issues you mention will get worked on, but it is not an overnight fix, they have not lost interest and are pumping a lot of man hours into getting these new features \ assets and content out.

 

Giving timescales is not going to happen, as dates can and do often change, which in turn leads to more frustration.

 

My personal thoughts are take a break, and come back when you think ED have what you think is acceptable for your game style.


Edited by BIGNEWY

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Because we don't know whats the state of those things. We just know that ED is "working on them". Will ED develop more aircraft? Will we get some twin-engine bombers? Will we get some dive bombers? Will we get some variety? What is the future?!

 

Many of us, WW2 simmers, fly since early 2000's and to us 4 fighter planes with some AI units do not make for a very comeplling experience. Even if we get 6 planes it is not good enough. And not to mention that we payed hard earned buck for it. ED has one of the more expensive WW2 experiences and shows lots of flaws and they seem to take forever to be adressed. The DM alone is beeing worked on so long that you could create a full indie game during that time.

 

For many VEAO was the future of WW2, even if that was undeserved, as they had a great WW2 collection of planes to be developed in the future. We are all waiting for someone to announce some Tempest/Typhoon, Mosquito, P-38, Spit XIV, A-20, Ju-87, Hs-129, Me-410, Fw190A8, Bf109G6. To create some variety in air combat and make it feel alive and more period correct. And that is just for the one Normandy theatre.

 

I wanted to get all the WW2 planes when they get out, but have put that on hold, because I am not satisfied with the product and I will not invest into something that might not get better soon and seems to have no future planed. :cry:

 

 

 

 

ED dont release information until it is much closer to the release stage, it is like that for every module not just WW2. Making big lists of aircraft to come is great but a lot can change over time, which is why it has to be this way.


Edited by BIGNEWY

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the Spitfire LFMkIX handling problems

 

Sry for my ignorance, but what problems are those?

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

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It takes time, it is that simple

 

ED are still developing and all of the issues you mention will get worked on, but it is not an overnight fix, they have not lost interest and are pumping a lot of man hours into getting these new features \ assets and content out.

 

Giving timescales is not going to happen, as dates can and do often change, which in turn leads to more frustration.

 

My personal thoughts are take a break, and come back when you think ED have what you think is acceptable for your game style.

 

I'm sorry BIGNEWY, I know how difficult software and model development can be but that only tells me there is no project plan, no milestones, etc..

 

"will get worked on" says they are not being worked on now, at least not seriously, as does "Giving timescales is not going to happen". The community is capable if understanding problems and an insight into what ED are doing is better than obstinate silence. Either way you are going to get flak and have to manage it. Better to keep your customers informed than risk losing them.

 

" getting these new features \ assets and content out". It is not new assets that frustrate us, it is the current assets that are not working properly that do.

 

"Taking a break" means clearing disc space or buying yet another drive for some other product while two unused installations just sit there. It isn't going to happen. I have spent enough already. I won't uninstall them because they do have something to offer in quiet moments but not as a WWII online combat sim which is why I bought into DCS WWII.

 

I do not understand why ED cannot tell us where they are on the Normandy map. As professionals they must have some idea of work and time. I assume they are not just working blindly looking for light at the end of the tunnel (if any). Similarly but separately the Spitfire and then the AI issue.

 

You are the Community Manager. Do you speak for ED? Do ED even know what we are thinking?

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klem

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I'm sorry BIGNEWY, I know how difficult software and model development can be but that only tells me there is no project plan, no milestones, etc..

 

"will get worked on" says they are not being worked on now, at least not seriously, as does "Giving timescales is not going to happen". The community is capable if understanding problems and an insight into what ED are doing is better than obstinate silence. Either way you are going to get flak and have to manage it. Better to keep your customers informed than risk losing them.

 

" getting these new features \ assets and content out". It is not new assets that frustrate us, it is the current assets that are not working properly that do.

 

"Taking a break" means clearing disc space or buying yet another drive for some other product while two unused installations just sit there. It isn't going to happen. I have spent enough already. I won't uninstall them because they do have something to offer in quiet moments but not as a WWII online combat sim which is why I bought into DCS WWII.

 

I do not understand why ED cannot tell us where they are on the Normandy map. As professionals they must have some idea of work and time. I assume they are not just working blindly looking for light at the end of the tunnel (if any). Similarly but separately the Spitfire and then the AI issue.

 

You are the Community Manager. Do you speak for ED? Do ED even know what we are thinking?

 

 

I can not change how you feel, if you don't want to believe that ED are working to bring new stuff and fix current issues then nothing I will say will change that, you have made your mind up already.

 

Understand this, ED have been doing this for many years, only giving info on projects or modules that are closer to release works better than any other way, they have learnt this from experience.

 

As a community manager and tester I am privileged to have a little more insight to what is going on, I see the hard work long before you guys, obviously due to NDA we can not say anything, so we have to leave it to ED for announcing stuff. We represent and help ED on the forum and make sure the rules are followed, but we are also volunteers and customers who love to fly in the sim like you guys. Sithspawn and I have made many feature request for the WW2 community based on your feedback and our own wishes and experience, so don't think ED don't listen, they do.

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+1 Klem

 

 

I won't add more for fear of moderation. You can read my thoughts over where you know I lurk :)

 

constructive criticism is encouraged as long as it is mature and courteous, if you can not do that its wise not to post. :thumbup:

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I read these replies and I see "We will do what we want when we want and we don't need your input because you do not understand how it works." ED seems to think they have a captive market and that once someone has paid for a module they will put up with anything to avoid wasting that investment. I am not a rich person and each module I have bought took a large chunk out of my monthly income and usually took me a few months to work up the courage to spend but it is spent now and if it turns out I wasted my money and can get a better experience elsewhere then I will take the hit; I am pretty much at that point now and probably past it as I have started buying competitors products.

 

The shame is that when everyone gets bored of waiting for titbits and goes elsewhere nobody at ED is going to take responsibility for helping that process along. It will just be 'Oh well. DCS Normandy turned out to be a dud that nobody wanted. What can we do?'

 

Nobody is demanding DCS build specific aircraft or gives accurate timeframes. Just a bit more feedback to let us know what is going through EDs minds (assuming we want to know that :-) )What we need to know is that DCS has an interest in building aircraft relevant to the Normandy timeframe that provide a reasonably balanced experience for both sides and an environment that supports an enjoyable MP experience. What we seem to be seeing is 'Cool aircraft to fly offline on their own.' Just a bit more feedback please.

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ED do give feedback, but they focus on whichever product is being marketed at the time, when they have things ready they share the info that is relevant.

 

I have highlighted this thread to a team member so that is all I can do for now.


Edited by BIGNEWY

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constructive criticism is encouraged as long as it is mature and courteous, if you can not do that its wise not to post. :thumbup:

 

Here's just one proposal (I could come up with more, but I'd have to charge a consulting fee**), constructively (I define "constructive" as a pro-active suggestion of specific behaviours or actions that can be taken, which are percieved to be different from the current actions or behaviours):

 

 

More screenshots / descriptions of the work in progress on the regular DCS newsletters.

 

--------

 

Here's a bit that isn't directly constructive, but explains/ adds some context to why the "constructive" bit above is suggested.

The newsletters are increasingly of less and less value. Announcements of various combinations of existing (often incomplete or alpha state) products for sale do not add much interest for hose of us who are expectant of updates to what we have already bought.

 

For example, the last newsletter was merely a section of bundle offers and a single player campaign offer.

source: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2017-09-01_KnowledgeDay/

No previews of any work on Normandy, and of the exsiting WWII machines or the assets.

 

The previous newsletter:

More sales promotions (SU33 and P51 Campaign) and the release of existing content onto steam.

No previews of any work on Normandy, and of the exsiting WWII machines or the assets.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2017-08-25_su-33_pre-purchase/

 

Now, for even more context. I've already had the below (jpg post and YT link provided) conversation with Matt W on YouTube.

 

The dots-in-clouds fix in 2.1.1 was brilliant. However, it was released in a patch, un-announced (or to little fan fare). I would suggest that in the week or so leading up to that release, that this information should have been put into the newsletter!

It's pretty big news for us WW2 players - the fact that the clouds now impede long range visibility. WW2 flying is an "eyeball" activitiy, so visual changes like this have a huge impact on gameplay.

Throw a screenshot or a 30 second Youtube video up and provide the link in the newsletter.

 

We are also told that there are ongoing efforts to improve the visual effects. How about throwing out WIP screenies of these?

Are the clouds being worked on still?

Has anyone even tried to stick a bomb on the Spitfre IX yet? How does it look? Sceenshot?

Ae there any screenshots of work on the new DM? Maybe a WiP shot of one of the existing warbirds with some damage-coding visualised.. even if it's just a wing section or some small part of the machine.

We know that A.I. maneuvering is being worked on . how about 50 words from the dev who is working on this, say once every month or so explaining how it is coming along from their perspective?

Are air-pressure forces on the Spit rudder still in the works? Can the devs shed any light on the interesting aspects of coding this? once again, a short couple of sentances would be great. A WiP video even better!

 

Small but insightful and regular updates are what keep people interested and confident of progress.

Engagement, engagement, engagement.

The customer does not want to feel we are being milked like cows (i.e. the only time we are engaged with is when something is going on offer). We aren't cows, we are cats. If we aren't being teased with food, we will jump the fence and see what the neighbours are offering.

 

 

If there is, in fact nothing to show then that seems to me to reinforce the idea that there is, in fact, nothing to show.

 

 

 

** this bit was just a joke in case anyone isn't aware

 

Referenced conversation from above:

from

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Edited by philstyle
spelling and formatting and some retrospecive emphasis adding
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On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

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I think ED have their hands full with the F/A-18 and Caucasus for 2.5 so work on damage models, ai, visibility, ww2 atc, ww2 radio calls will not be a priority.

 

ED has not shared any info about other WW2 maps being considered, so in my opinion Normandy will be the sole map in the foreseeable future.

 

We'll get more asset pack content and Normandy map optimizations though.

 

It's not the same teams working on that stuff, the Hornet will have its own team and 2.5 has its, it shouldn't impact what is going on with WWII items.

 

The exceptions might be AI and Visibility which impact the entire sim, not just WWII aspects. DM might as well, but from what I understand they brought on someone specially to lead that, but I might not have that right.

 

ED doesnt share to far into the future anymore, it's just better for them as people put unreasonable time frames and expectations on things when they are shared too early. Of if something impacts the release of those things, people are unforgiving.

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