Realism versus fun

I would agree. That said ED, please remove all keyboard and mouse binds as these baby’s don’t fly by no keyboard jockeys. Also, please disable the feature that allows you to look out through a tv instead of a cockpit window.

Finally, program it to only work with a real hotas setup (readily available from government sources) not the pretend toys like the Warthog.

Oh and since I’m a real pilot please get rid of my job and pay my rent as I can’t park an F-14 in my den and my office is 20 miles away from the nearest runway. I only have 20 min to arrive, preplan, inspect,file a flight plan, fly to the caucuses and back. Gotta be realistic don’t ya know....

You guys don’t want realism, you want to keep it difficult so you can continue to convince yourself that your more than a gamer and somehow better than everyone else.

Sad

I see responses like this come up in these kinds of discussions and to be blunt, it doesn't really help to go to such a absurd extreme. I am pretty confident that you understand that your "reductio ad absurdum" example isn't what anyone really wants. What people want is DCS to continue to be a platform that tries its best to provide realistic, immersive aircraft to explore and interact with. Obviously there should be options for those that want to tone down the complexity (perhaps MAC is that solution in the long run) but this idea that it is either "make DCS accessible" or "I want to actually file paperwork, go through real-life briefings, and actually have a chance of dying in combat" with no in between is silly and doesn't help the conversation move forward.

I see responses like this come up in these kinds of discussions and to be blunt, it doesn't really help to go to such a absurd extreme. I am pretty confident that you understand that your "reductio ad absurdum" example isn't what anyone really wants. What people want is DCS to continue to be a platform that tries its best to provide realistic, immersive aircraft to explore and interact with. Obviously there should be options for those that want to tone down the complexity (perhaps MAC is that solution in the long run) but this idea that it is either "make DCS accessible" or "I want to actually file paperwork, go through real-life briefings, and actually have a chance of dying in combat" with no in between is silly and doesn't help the conversation move forward.

Interesting that it takes an absurd post for the voice of reason to rise to the top. That is exactly the argument that has gone back and forth for 12 pages. There are folks asking for more shortcuts/ functionality and others accepting everything THEY use as a shortcut, yet berate others for their requests.

Hypocrisy sucks and I called it out.

Interesting that it takes an absurd post for the voice of reason to rise to the top. That is exactly the argument that has gone back and forth for 12 pages. There are folks asking for more shortcuts/ functionality and others accepting everything THEY use as a shortcut, yet berate others for their requests.

Hypocrisy sucks and I called it out.

"Hypocrisy" may not be the right word. I mean, I consider myself to be very much on the "rivet counter" side of the overall equation but even I understand that there is really only so much that can be realistically simulated before you leave the scope of the intended simulation environment. As I said before. People who are looking for realism in DCS as a priority are not talking about anything outside of the aircraft, its various systems, and the procedures involved in using those systems. It is obvious that anything outside the cockpit isn't really within the scope of the simulation. Nobody is asking ED to come and kill them when they crash. Nobody is asking ED to make us file paperwork after every mission. You know that and I know that so lets not go to that extreme when it accomplishes nothing and only serves to make the overall discussion less productive.

Interesting that it takes an absurd post for the voice of reason to rise to the top. That is exactly the argument that has gone back and forth for 12 pages. There are folks asking for more shortcuts/ functionality and others accepting everything THEY use as a shortcut, yet berate others for their requests.

Hypocrisy sucks and I called it out.

Sorry, but I fail to see what your absurd comment is supposed to call out. The fact that people who want a realistic simulation don't want to die IRL when getting shot down in the simulation is not adding anything to the discussion as it is totally missing the point...

I would agree. That said ED, please remove all keyboard and mouse binds as these baby’s don’t fly by no keyboard jockeys. Also, please disable the feature that allows you to look out through a tv instead of a cockpit window.

Finally, program it to only work with a real hotas setup (readily available from government sources) not the pretend toys like the Warthog.

Oh and since I’m a real pilot please get rid of my job and pay my rent as I can’t park an F-14 in my den and my office is 20 miles away from the nearest runway. I only have 20 min to arrive, preplan, inspect,file a flight plan, fly to the caucuses and back. Gotta be realistic don’t ya know....

You guys don’t want realism, you want to keep it difficult so you can continue to convince yourself that your more than a gamer and somehow better than everyone else.

Sad

Have to agree. I'm as much for realism as anybody here, but some of these guys need to go outside. It's fine to ''live the fantasy''... but it IS a fantasy. Period. It IS a game. Period. ''Shimulatorsh''... heh.

I also agree that a lot of it is elitism. Everybody thinks they're nerds. They know they're nerds. In some half baked attempt to salvage their self-image (which is a mental/emotional issue only they can help) they obsess over this stuff in a vain effort to claim they aren't playing a game, and even though they aren't REALLY a fighter pilot, ya know they 'COULD BE' if they could only go back in time blah blah.

I don't envy ED. I'd run through with a banhammer, personally. Starting with me due to my visibility, then work my way down the list :p

Have to agree. I'm as much for realism as anybody here, but some of these guys need to go outside. It's fine to ''live the fantasy''... but it IS a fantasy. Period. It IS a game. Period. ''Shimulatorsh''... heh.

 

I also agree that a lot of it is elitism. Everybody thinks they're nerds. They know they're nerds. In some half baked attempt to salvage their self-image (which is a mental/emotional issue only they can help) they obsess over this stuff in a vain effort to claim they aren't playing a game, and even though they aren't REALLY a fighter pilot, ya know they 'COULD BE' if they could only go back in time blah blah.

 

I don't envy ED. I'd run through with a banhammer, personally. Starting with me due to my visibility, then work my way down the list :p

I would have loved to become a military pilot IRL, but that wasn't possible for me unfortunately, so I'm glad that DCS gives me the opportunity to get as close to that as possible.

I don't understand why I should feel bad for that or what that has to do with elitism? :huh:

Hey guys, first of all, I like the discussion you keep going here. It is a decade old discussion that basically comes down to personal preferences. The chance on everyone agreeing on such personal preferences is pretty slim so this discussion will go on for another decade. When it comes to the Kiowa, it will be on par with what you'd expect from a DCS module in terms of fidelity and we'll always be open to improvements and additions after release. This discussion is no longer about the Kiowa though, it is much broader than that. I don't mind you guys continuing your discussion here, feel free to do so, but I feel this is more about flight sims, flight sim users and modules in general. This might no longer be the correct subforum if you want to discuss these topics with a broader audience. Just saying..

Sorry, but I fail to see what your absurd comment is supposed to call out. The fact that people who want a realistic simulation don't want to die IRL when getting shot down in the simulation is not adding anything to the discussion as it is totally missing the point...

Of course you do....

Of course you do....

I think I remember a comment from QuiGon a long time ago where he said he'd remove the option to hide the control stick from DCS if he could.

If that's his position ( he might have been joking ) then I doubt you'll ever reach any sort of mutual understanding.

I would have loved beeing a military pilot IRL, but that wasn't possible for me unfortunately, so I'm glad that DCS gives me the opportunity to get as close to that as possible.

 

I don't understand whyshould feel bad for that or what that has to do with elitism? :huh:

I hear ya, truly. The entire reason I joined the Army was for a shot at a slot for flight school. In my third year of a six year enlistment I was selected for flight school. At the time I was a flying, non rated crewmen. Commonly known as a “Crew Chief”; logged about 350 hours at that point, in all conditions. It’s important to note non rated crew had to pass the same flight physical as pilots, save the 20/20 vision requirement. Anyway, I get to flight school, start WOC training and guess what? I fail the freakin eye exam for astigmatism. That’s right, they subject you to another flight physical while in WOC (Warren Officer Candidate) school. I passed the visual requirements a year earlier when I applied, but my physiology aged another year and I was a full diopter out of limits.

It was a soul crushing, horrible time in my life. I still lose sleep over it to this day. When I listen to the Fighter Pilots Podcast and I hear all the talk of waivers I want to cry and/or commit homicide (not really, said for laughs - but it does hurt to this day). I hear you. I totally get it.

I say with absolute honesty that there are some things - with present consumer technology - that just can’t be modeled in any game when it comes to flying. From my own experiences flying third seat, what matters for our game are the visceral elements. In today’s terms, based on my own experience actually doing the kinds of things some want modeled in game, What will give you the best impression of flying are sound, visuals and flight dynamics. Trying to model, for example, the feel of a real helicopter through a consumer software product is like asking me to explain an orgasm. I know exactly what a Blackhawk feels like VIA the collective and cyclic. There’s no way to model THAT without the actual servos, springs, mechanical geometry, etc, etc, etc. I understand why people are asking for the things they asking for, it’s just that if they get what they are asking for their gameplay won’t be any deeper, better or more satisfying. Deep, realistic and convincing is what brings you closest to what it actually feels like to fly, short of a multi axis, multimillion dollar, purpose built simulator.

I respect you and deeply appreciate you sharing your situation. So, I thought I’d share something personal too, so you know you aren’t alone dealing with that kind of disappointment and pain.

ETA - what I’m getting at is that no amount of coding can overcome our disappointment. I’ve spent maybe a dozen hours in 1990’s full motion, Blackhawk simulators. Usually it was during lunch, or a weekend, and once the pilots had done whatever they needed time on, they’d let me hop in the left seat and do all the things you’d expect a couple of guys goofing off in a multi million dollar simulator to do. The sim was perfect for pilots to practice procedures. Things like IFR approaches or perhaps bold faced items. The cockpit was a faithful 1:1 reproduction. What it was kinda “eh” at? What it felt like to actually fly it, or in it. It was close, but only close and this was an articulating, off the floor, enclosed, on hydraulic arms, the real deal simulator. I promise, just “eh”. The visuals were horrible, even for 1990’s standards. Current sims lag behind what we have on our desktops to this day. The 1:1 cockpit isn’t nearly as important to immersion as is sound and “feel” - as far as trying to capture the impossible sensation of flying in a particular airframe. I think far more important to you being able to capture what it really feels like would be an excellent VR system, rather than very, very deep troubleshooting procedures (as just a random example).

Thank you Tokoyami for sharing your experiences on chasing your dream. I'm really glad that something like DCS exists to offer the average Joe, who doesn't have 20/20 vision or so, the opportunity to live this dream virtually, although it obviously falls short cmpared to the real deal.

I had to chuckle a bit though when you talked about the shortcomings of the simulation in regards to the immersion of flying, because that's actually not so much what I'm into. For me the most immersion lies in the interaction with the systems and avionics. I would actually rather be a WSO/RIO than a pilot, as I love to interact with the various onboard systems, to control the sensors and employ the weapons. Flying for me is just a necessity to get the weapons and systems to where they are needed. That doesn't mean I don't want the flying part to to be as realistic/immersive as possible though. :)

What people want is DCS to continue to be a platform that tries its best to provide realistic, immersive aircraft to explore and interact with. Obviously there should be options for those that want to tone down the complexity (perhaps MAC is that solution in the long run) but this idea that it is either "make DCS accessible" or "I want to actually file paperwork, go through real-life briefings, and actually have a chance of dying in combat" with no in between is silly and doesn't help the conversation move forward.

What people want is, what DCS already addresses pretty good. They want to be able to "make it accessible" as an option, through settings and configuration, while having the option to set it to full realism including to choose to "file paperwork, go through real-life briefings, and..." at least when dying in the Sim, not just press a button to respawn and go in with a fresh plane.

The challenge is to keep both options so everybody can make the most out of his DCS experience, not forcing the Sim in one particular direction.

MAC will likely cater more for things like public servers with Leaderboards, Tournaments, casual Online Dogfights and Match-Making, but that is possible in DCS already. In parallel we have Squadrons doing ultra realism missions on there closed servers and actually go through 1 hour mission briefings, pre-flight, etc.

That's what I love about DCS. I can decide on a daily basis, if I want a pleasure flight and sight seeing, play a bit of a story driven campaign, try a casual ground attack or BFM training with a friend, or go for a realistic mission with a group of milsim nerds that takes 3 plus hours. :)

Thank you Tokoyami for sharing your experiences on chasing your dream. I'm really glad that something like DCS exists to offer the average Joe, who doesn't have 20/20 vision or so, the opportunity to live this dream virtually, although it obviously falls short cmpared to the real deal.

 

I had to chuckle a bit though when you talked about the shortcomings of the simulation in regards to the immersion of flying, because that's actually not so much what I'm into. For me the most immersion lies in the interaction with the systems and avionics. I would actually rather be a WSO/RIO than a pilot, as I love to interact with the various onboard systems, to control the sensors and employ the weapons. Flying for me is just a necessity to get the weapons and systems to where they are needed. That doesn't mean I don't want the flying part to to be as realistic/immersive as possible though. :)

Thank you for your comments - I read every word. I think we are much closer aligned than we suspect. I respect and appreciate your opinions and what’s important to you.

What people want is, what DCS already addresses pretty good. They want to be able to "make it accessible" as an option, through settings and configuration, while having the option to set it to full realism including to choose to "file paperwork, go through real-life briefings, and..." at least when dying in the Sim, not just press a button to respawn and go in with a fresh plane.

The challenge is to keep both options so everybody can make the most out of his DCS experience, not forcing the Sim in one particular direction.

MAC will likely cater more for things like public servers with Leaderboards, Tournaments, casual Online Dogfights and Match-Making, but that is possible in DCS already. In parallel we have Squadrons doing ultra realism missions on there closed servers and actually go through 1 hour mission briefings, pre-flight, etc.

That's what I love about DCS. I can decide on a daily basis, if I want a pleasure flight and sight seeing, play a bit of a story driven campaign, try a casual ground attack or BFM training with a friend, or go for a realistic mission with a group of milsim nerds that takes 3 plus hours. :)

+1 on that

Realism is the theme to DCS. So if you don't think things can be fun and realistic