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F-14 Handling in Knife Fight


bonesvf103

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OK, so I've read the discourse from Victory, watched many videos on YouTube, even went as far as to buy rudder pedals JUST for the DCS F-14...

 

 

...and yet I still cannot consistently dogfight in this wonderful aircraft. It seems that at high AOA, when I use the rudders to turn the aircraft, I either end up over-rolling and end up nose down, or her airspeed plummets near-instantaneously to stall speed. Even when I center the stick, or unload, she doesn't seem to recover with any useful energy. There are times when I'm pointed completely nose down and I'm still at stall speed despite being at Zone V and vertically down.

 

 

Then there are times when I have energy and when I go to a zoom climb, the buffeting starts and again airspeed drops like a rock. I don't feel like I even see or feel this great climbing advantage that the Tomcat is supposed to have over other aircraft.

 

 

 

It feels like I'm babying her all the time. There are times when I can get in the perfect position behind an F-16 and can get a guns kill, but lo and behold, I can't even raise my nose to get the pipper on him and because the energy is just not there.

 

 

So what is the issue? When you roll with the rudder, are you still seeing buffet and wing rock? Do you just hold the pull on the stick (don't pull any further) and just lumber through the turn with the rudder no matter how much buffeting you get?

 

 

Maybe I'm flying too much against tight turning aircraft like the F-16---I don't seem to have a problem against an Su-27--but that's why I said I can't seem to knife fight CONSISTENTLY.

 

 

Any ideas?

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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1) ...end up nose down

 

2) ...when I center the stick, or unload, she doesn't seem to recover with any useful energy

 

3) ...It feels like I'm babying her all the time.

 

4)...I can't even raise my nose to get the pipper on him and because the energy is just not there.

 

boNes

 

I'm with ya. Hardest I've ever had to work at it. And I'm _barely_ there against expert AI. About 3 outta 4 lately.

 

1) I've come to the conclusion that: that's how it is. Meaning it sorta makes sense. I didn't start to gain any success til I realized that it's gong to be a spiral dance, and I can out roll him, keeping my lift vector where I want it. But it's going to be downhill, and steep.

 

Seems the AI, on expert at least, always use the vertical, and if I'm not really ginger with the pole I'm struggling.

 

2) I've been comparing this to the Hornet and to me it actually does accelerate briskly when I unload, or at least it's more noticeable.

 

3) Same and I just think that's the nature of this beast. Haven't read it in a while but Victory205 may have inferred this with his "...tap dance on the pedals, don't pound on them..", or some-such thing.

 

4) Got that T-shirt too. Seems like I really (really) have to manage the energy; if I let it slip even a tad low and 'tug' a tiny bit too hard, the target flies away and I've got to unload and re-group. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

I've taken to controlling the stick from the base; sorta like I did when I first started doing AR in the Tomcat (before I discovered Bomb Mode). My stick is very sensitive and has no feedback. Is even harder for me in VR when contorted in my chair and looking back over my shoulder.

 

For me, for example: I just went against the MIG-21, expert AI, in the Hornet. Once I latched on, for fun, I just kept on his Six til he ran outta gas. In the Tomcat it takes 3X the work to do this. And I'm not that successful yet.

 

On the rudder & buffet: heard it somewhere (here?) that your cue is a _little_ buffet; almost like, to me, when I start to notice it I'm probably starting to go over the edge, or really close. Assuming you're near the 'correct' IAS.


Edited by jross194

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This is a good video on the topic:

 

And no it wont solve all your issues (nor mine) but it does a good job describing them smile.gif

 

 

Thanks, this is one of the ones I've watched several times. I've noticed that in his breaks, he is usually around 400 or 500 knots. When flying against say an F-16 I typically see about 300 knots at the most. Which means losing energy pretty quickly. So I don't know if his video can apply as much unless I somehow keep my energy state at 400+ knots against the Falcon.

 

 

Thanks for trying to help though!

 

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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I've taken to controlling the stick from the base; sorta like I did when I first started doing AR in the Tomcat (before I discovered Bomb Mode). My stick is very sensitive and has no feedback. Is even harder for me in VR when contorted in my chair and looking back over my shoulder.

 

For me, for example: I just went against the MIG-21, expert AI, in the Hornet. Once I latched on, for fun, I just kept on his Six til he ran outta gas. In the Tomcat it takes 3X the work to do this. And I'm not that successful yet.

 

On the rudder & buffet: heard it somewhere (here?) that your cue is a _little_ buffet; almost like, to me, when I start to notice it I'm probably starting to go over the edge, or really close. Assuming you're near the 'correct' IAS.

 

 

 

 

OK, I'm glad I'm not the only one that KNOWS how to fly ACM/BFM but still struggles with the Tom...not to mention I love the Tom so it makes it really hard for me to accept it having to be babied so much.

 

 

ANYWAY, yes I am like you, when I fly against an Aggressor F-16 (the stock mission that comes with the NNTS for DACT guns only), I can 95% of the time stay on his six and keep off of his, but I can't seem to get good solid shots. The only times I've been able to shoot him down is if I got a slashing snapshot or was lucky to gun him on the nose in the initial merge. Otherwise, I, like you, can only win when he runs out of gas and/or hits the ground. I've gone vertical with him before to "reset the engagement" with my "superior" thrust, but it seems like he climbs better than me or I can't climb at more than 40 deg nose up before buffeting starts or energy runs out. If I get to full vertical, I'm ready to stall out and no rudder or stick will control me enough to turn back into the flight.

 

 

In terms of rudder, I believe Victory's words are that you don't need a dramatic amount of rudder...but I wonder if maybe I need to change my rudder settings because it seems to roll me over pretty harsh. TBH, I am using the same rudder settings as recommended in Chuck's F/A-18 guide--maybe that's not correct.

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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Really hard for me as well. No problem against Flankers, but -29 are another story. In the previous patch (not the latest, but the one before) I found difficulty to fight F-5E3 on the vertical. I was a little bit choked since it's really what ''Top Gun'' instructors told to their studdent against T-38 (which I assume are pretty close to f-5) : go vertical, it is not possible for him to follow you.

 

 

 

Here's the video I'm reffering to (listen at 5.45) :

 

 

Didn't tried again in the latest OB though.

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Are you disabling roll SAS for dogfighting?

 

When on, it greatly increases instability at high AOA. Turn if off for dogfights.

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Are you disabling roll SAS for dogfighting?

 

When on, it greatly increases instability at high AOA. Turn if off for dogfights.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I do as well.

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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I’ve found I don’t even need to reference speed, after some practice I just watch the AoA and feel for how much stick I’m giving her, that and the buffet que, I can manage my energy just fine.

If I pull more than 15 units of AoA she bleeds speed.

When in bomb mode the AoA comes on faster but seems to be more forgiving and conserves energy better if I go over 15 units for a few seconds.

 

The magic number seems to be 15 units of AoA for sustained turns.

Anything more and she drops like a rock, you can guess speed just by how much stick you pull and how much AoA is on the bird, but like I said AoA comes on with less stick the more sweep you have.


Edited by Longiron
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OK, so I've read the discourse from Victory, watched many videos on YouTube, even went as far as to buy rudder pedals JUST for the DCS F-14...

 

 

...and yet I still cannot consistently dogfight in this wonderful aircraft. It seems that at high AOA, when I use the rudders to turn the aircraft, I either end up over-rolling and end up nose down, or her airspeed plummets near-instantaneously to stall speed. Even when I center the stick, or unload, she doesn't seem to recover with any useful energy. There are times when I'm pointed completely nose down and I'm still at stall speed despite being at Zone V and vertically down.

 

 

So what is the issue? When you roll with the rudder, are you still seeing buffet and wing rock? Do you just hold the pull on the stick (don't pull any further) and just lumber through the turn with the rudder no matter how much buffeting you get?

 

Hi bonesvf103,

 

The F-14 is very sensitive to AOA in terms of energy management. One of its strengths is that it requires less AOA than other aircraft to generate solid lift for turn performance, but it is also very sensitive to excessive AOA. One of the most common issues is that players tend to be at too high of AOA during engagements because it takes a moment for the airframe to build to maximal pitch rate. So the player will apply back stick and see the pitch rate increase, but keep adding AOA since the pitch rate isn't what they need. Pitch rate will improve for at least 0.5 seconds after optimum AOA is reached, so it is better to set the aircraft to a specific AOA or light buffet than simply adding pitch inputs to deliver the rate. Small editions will then be easier to manage if you let the airframe settle in for a moment.

 

Similarly, unloads require the AOA to decrease below 10 units to really pick up energy. This also takes a moment and its best to watch the AOA gauge for practice instead of just pushing the stick forward for a moment. Compared to other DCS modules, aero effects take a moment as airflow changes over the airframe.

 

With the rudder rolls, you do need to watch AOA during rudder rolls since sideslip increases AOA (for most aircraft in general). At medium AOA (15-17 units), you don't need to relax much back stick to perform a solid rudder reversal, but at 20+ units you need to relax 30-50% back stick as the nose rolls past the horizon. With practice this will feel more natural and you won't build up so much AOA or lose as much airspeed. Also, being precise about the magnitude of the rudder input and centering the rudders before the reversal is complete (again because of inertia) will make the reversal cleaner. If you see buffet increasing during a reversal, release some pressure on the stick since it is a sign that AOA is building.

 

In general, you want to be in light buffet during sustained maneuvers and moderate during instantaneous turn performance. If you see the airframe buffeting heavily, unload and reduce your AOA.

 

I hope these tips are helpful.

 

-Nick

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Anything over 15 units of AoA and you're hemorrhaging airspeed and energy.

 

You have to have a lot of patience and be very strict with AoA, she doesn't fly like all the other aircraft in the game with FBW, you have to be very precise and hyper aware of your energy state at all times as she is not an easy aircraft to dogfight well with.

 

With that being said however it is still very much a mean machine when you get in the groove and you really can throw her around pretty aggressively providing you are precise with your inputs.

 

Heavy buffet is bad and you should stay out of it as BlackLion mentioned, trying to force the aircraft to perform under heavy buffet is going to get you killed, just keep in the forefront of your mind that anything above 15 units of AoA is costing you energy big time.

 

You only want to go above 15 units of AoA when you have excessive energy and you're confident you can get a kill shot.

 

I started a video series on my channel dogfighting against 2 AI set on excellent and managed to shoot 2 F-16s, 2 Su27s, 2 Mig28s, 2 Mig29s, 2 F-15s and 2 F-18s down without too much trouble.

 

If you watch any of them be sure to look out for how often I bring my eyes out of the fight and into the cockpit to reference my AoA, as you'll see she can be pretty nimble if you look after your AoA properly.

 

The main thing to nail is the understanding that you cannot fly her like other aircraft, you mentioned having to 'baby' her and this is actually very accurate. If you are bullish with the controls you'll die pretty quickly, however if you put more finesse in to your inputs you'll see improvements very quickly.

Remember to be patient and bide your time behind the bandit and conserve your energy until you need it.

Constantly trying to get nose on the bandit won't work out for you in the Tomcat.

 

 

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Depends on what the speed is when Im going down hill, if you listen out for the 'clicks' that is me coming in and out of AB.

 

Generally speaking if I start to go UP with 350kts I stay in AB on the way back down, if I go up with 400-450kts I come out of AB at the top of the loop and come down in MIL.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



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Thanks, I tried some of the tips and found that I had less heavy buffeting and imminent departures. I was able to hold my own against the F-16 90% of the time, that is, kept him in my forward quarter the entire time even if I didn't get a kill shot. On some occasions I did actually shoot him down, but they were all snapshots where I anticipated him crossing in front of my nose so I proactively left a curtain of 20 mm for him to fly through. Other times he maneuvered into the ground or ran out of gas. On one special occasion, I hit him a few times with te gun, then ran out of bullets. But I kept on his six and I literally was able to call "trigger down, guns guns guns" a good 4 or 5 times, with the pipper held on him...if I had rounds that would have been a SWEET kill.

 

 

 

So, I'll keep at it. I think what I've been trying to get into the habit of is to pull on the pole until I just start to noticed buffeting, then I leave the pole there and do the rest with the rudders and throttle. If I need an extra bit G to get nose on, then I will yank into the high buffet range but only for a second before unloading again.

 

 

I have to continue to convince myself that even though I am holding the pole in one position, that the Tomcat is a huge lifting surface and thus the pitch IS increasing as is the AOA even if I hold it there, so don't pull back anymore, everything will catch up.

 

 

Or so I think...

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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I have to continue to convince myself that even though I am holding the pole in one position, that the Tomcat is a huge lifting surface and thus the pitch IS increasing as is the AOA even if I hold it there, so don't pull back anymore, everything will catch up.

 

This was the game changer for me, somehow in the Tomcat it doesn't feel like you are turning very fast even when you are and its hard to fight the temptation to pull harder to try and speed things up.

 

If you don't do this and instead fly your AoA properly and be patient, she will come to you ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

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I am happy to report that I got what I consider to be my first LEGIT guns only ACM kill on the Aggressor F-16. He did get a bead on me and hit me in the right taileron, but I was able to rise up and get him with a pipper on target shot twice resulting in his shootdown. No running out of gas, no driving into the moutain, just 20mm ventilating his friggin canopy!

 

 

Then I landed at Mesquite for a beer.

 

 

Thanks all, I think I'm getting the hang of it!

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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Really hard for me as well. No problem against Flankers, but -29 are another story. In the previous patch (not the latest, but the one before) I found difficulty to fight F-5E3 on the vertical. I was a little bit choked since it's really what ''Top Gun'' instructors told to their studdent against T-38 (which I assume are pretty close to f-5) : go vertical, it is not possible for him to follow you.

 

 

 

Here's the video I'm reffering to (listen at 5.45) :

 

 

Didn't tried again in the latest OB though.

The DCS F-5E3 is a plane I know quite well as its pilot, and flying it against a correct Tomcat pilot is a high-level sport. I can say you that AI F-5s' FM is an hilarious BS bucket. What they can do vertically all day long is ridiculous. All AI FMs are flawed. So as far as close air combat is concerned, the AI adversary topic is something very specific, and it can be frustrating in both ways: too easy or too hard compared to the real thing (and to an human flying the sim), depending on how the AI FM is botched.

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I’ve found I don’t even need to reference speed, after some practice I just watch the AoA and feel for how much stick I’m giving her, that and the buffet que, I can manage my energy just fine.

If I pull more than 15 units of AoA she bleeds speed.

When in bomb mode the AoA comes on faster but seems to be more forgiving and conserves energy better if I go over 15 units for a few seconds.

 

The magic number seems to be 15 units of AoA for sustained turns.

Anything more and she drops like a rock, you can guess speed just by how much stick you pull and how much AoA is on the bird, but like I said AoA comes on with less stick the more sweep you have.

 

I see...

 

Good to know everything is going great. :thumbup:

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I’ve found I don’t even need to reference speed, after some practice I just watch the AoA and feel for how much stick I’m giving her, that and the buffet que, I can manage my energy just fine.

If I pull more than 15 units of AoA she bleeds speed.

When in bomb mode the AoA comes on faster but seems to be more forgiving and conserves energy better if I go over 15 units for a few seconds.

 

The magic number seems to be 15 units of AoA for sustained turns.

Anything more and she drops like a rock, you can guess speed just by how much stick you pull and how much AoA is on the bird, but like I said AoA comes on with less stick the more sweep you have.

 

This. Once I learned not to exceed 15 units AoA, I have been able to consistently trash the “Excellent” AI in 2v1 guns only engagements.

 

Obviously that’s not against human pilots, but still - feels good lol:lol:

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  • 7 months later...

Keep your speed up, and ease the stick back into the pull. Listen to the airframe; she'll tell you when you're on the edge.

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;3894799']Anything over 15 units of AoA and you're hemorrhaging airspeed and energy.

 

You have to have a lot of patience and be very strict with AoA, she doesn't fly like all the other aircraft in the game with FBW, you have to be very precise and hyper aware of your energy state at all times as she is not an easy aircraft to dogfight well with.

 

With that being said however it is still very much a mean machine when you get in the groove and you really can throw her around pretty aggressively providing you are precise with your inputs.

 

Heavy buffet is bad and you should stay out of it as BlackLion mentioned, trying to force the aircraft to perform under heavy buffet is going to get you killed, just keep in the forefront of your mind that anything above 15 units of AoA is costing you energy big time.

 

You only want to go above 15 units of AoA when you have excessive energy and you're confident you can get a kill shot.

 

I started a video series on my channel dogfighting against 2 AI set on excellent and managed to shoot 2 F-16s, 2 Su27s, 2 Mig28s, 2 Mig29s, 2 F-15s and 2 F-18s down without too much trouble.

 

If you watch any of them be sure to look out for how often I bring my eyes out of the fight and into the cockpit to reference my AoA, as you'll see she can be pretty nimble if you look after your AoA properly.

 

The main thing to nail is the understanding that you cannot fly her like other aircraft, you mentioned having to 'baby' her and this is actually very accurate. If you are bullish with the controls you'll die pretty quickly, however if you put more finesse in to your inputs you'll see improvements very quickly.

Remember to be patient and bide your time behind the bandit and conserve your energy until you need it.

Constantly trying to get nose on the bandit won't work out for you in the Tomcat.

 

 

 

This was also really well done and I learned a lot from it.

 

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