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In the past, mention has been made of the possibility of introducing APKWS as available ammunition for the Harrier: now that APKWS is about to be officially introduced by ED, is compatibility with the Harrier something that can actually be achieved?

 

 

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Really much hope this.

 

I have written wishlist about this (people still try to argue that it is impossible as it is incompatible) and second for ED to port it from A-10C II to others (that got moved to wishlist as well, but they are two separate wishes anyways, one was adding it and other was porting it).

 

So now when ED has really brought the APKWS II to DCS World (and likely Polychop using it as well in their up coming OH-58 Kiowa Warrior) officially in A-10C II as you say, it should be easy to add for Razbam to AV-8B Harrier too, as it should be just adding new weapon loadout and 3D model from ED.

 

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/apkws-laser-guided-rocket

 

Of course for the bureaucratic reasons all weapons go for the testing phase, even if it is engineering standpoint fully expected to get pass, but law is law and procedure is procedure.

 

So when it comes to approving something to in service/in use, it just happens that when you don't anymore operate some old platforms (like UH-1H) or you don't have its original weapons loadouts anymore in use, you just don't spend time and money to test it on those, but you just focus testing all equipment on active-service platforms only.

 

So ED should just get APKWS II available for all compatible systems, meaning UH-1H, F/A-18C Hornet, F-16C Falcon etc.

 

So if the platform can carry any of the compatible rocket pods, it is ready to go...

 

I expect to see AV-8B N/A to be able use these things in the future if I so want in mission, so any mission designer can just disallow their use if so wanted....

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ALKWS is a real game changer on the battlefield. Instead of blowing up a building, And damaging a block...it's possible to take out a single room.

 

That's huge!

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The seeker doesn't see or lock on to the laser spot before launch, because the seeker is actually 4 sensors mounted on the front fins, which are folded before and during launch. Once the rocket is fired, as it exits the tube, the fins pop out, and hopefully see the laser spot on the target, and start guiding the rocketmissile to terminate the intended target.

 

I think on some competing systems, there is a wireless communication, that allows for things like changing the laser code, for multiple simultaneous launches with several designators making target spots... while not wasting any of the rocketmissiles! not sure if APKWS does that though.

 

These are becomming popular, BAE is making something like this, as is a French company, and Canada's CRV-7 superfast hard hitting kinetic rocket is getting a laser guided variant too but I don't know details of it. I think partly it's about weapon cost: much cheaper than Hellfires or Paveways, especially if you are just buying upgrade guidance kits.

 

The other reason is likely because now lighter platforms can carry more than say 2 or 4 missiles, and instead carry maybe 14 of them for similar weight, be it on a UAV or a light helicopter like the AH-6 Littlebird. Similarly, if you put it on a full size attack helicopter with big rocketpods, you can now cover far more targets than say 16 ground vehicles/targets, an AH-64 Apache could carry 76 such rocketmissiles, making fuel and crew endurance more the limitation than ordnance.

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That said... from what I'm gathering, from a recent interview, for some reason I don't understand (I have no clue abt software or code writing), apparently with DCS you can't simply copy/paste a weapon onto a new platform. Each time they add a Sidewinder to a new module, it's written fresh and not the same.

 

No I have no idea why, it doesn't seem logical to me, but it was said that even ground vehicles with an HMG can't be coppied to another vehicle, it's a new challenge for the programmers, making the creation of a new asset or module a very time consuming and expensive process. I think I heard that on the GR interview with a dev guy from ED.

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I think on some competing systems, there is a wireless communication, that allows for things like changing the laser code, for multiple simultaneous launches with several designators making target spots... while not wasting any of the rocketmissiles! not sure if APKWS does that though.

 

Most laser guided weapons rely on dialling in the code on the weapon itself, APKWS is no exception. Off the top of my head the only ones that don't have that are GBU54 and AGM65E/L.

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That said... from what I'm gathering, from a recent interview, for some reason I don't understand (I have no clue abt software or code writing), apparently with DCS you can't simply copy/paste a weapon onto a new platform. Each time they add a Sidewinder to a new module, it's written fresh and not the same.

 

No I have no idea why, it doesn't seem logical to me, but it was said that even ground vehicles with an HMG can't be coppied to another vehicle, it's a new challenge for the programmers, making the creation of a new asset or module a very time consuming and expensive process. I think I heard that on the GR interview with a dev guy from ED.

 

The weapon once it leaves the vehicle is the same base code as it would be for any other launch vehicle. What requires recoding is the stores management system that will recognise the weapon and display the appropriate formats, eg the mav display for a maverick.

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Most laser guided weapons rely on dialling in the code on the weapon itself, APKWS is no exception. Off the top of my head the only ones that don't have that are GBU54 and AGM65E/L.

 

Sure, no doubt. But I know that the French 70mm guided rocket system, uses wireless data link to inform the rocket guidance what laser code to use, unlike normal where the ground crew would twist the little dials before flight. I believe this is done to give flexibility while in the air, for a changing mission needs. I can't recall for certain but I think the BAE version may also feature this wireless datacoms for the same reason. One benefit to this is it reduces the ground crew workload, as well as not needing a new rocket pod, although the French have made a fancy new pod anyway.

 

I wonder about security of such a connection. I mean, I'm the opposite of an expert on the subject, but I'd be worried that enemy electronic warfare could compromise such a system: change the laser code on the rockets to the most unlikely number available... then when they go to fire on a designated target the rocket goes dumb, and again and again. But that's probably not how it would go down in the real world, double checking codes and such.

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I can't recall for certain but I think the BAE version may also feature this wireless datacoms for the same reason.

 

APKWS is an upgrade fitted to "standard" 2.75' rockets / launchers, the mid body adaptor has laser code setting dials similar to those found on the GBU-12 series and are set prior to the rocket being loaded into the launcher.

 

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The weapon once it leaves the vehicle is the same base code as it would be for any other launch vehicle. What requires recoding is the stores management system that will recognise the weapon and display the appropriate formats, eg the mav display for a maverick.

 

APKWS II has no modifications for the software.

 

The ground crew assembles the rockets for the use, sets the proper laser code and then turns the battery On-Off switch to On position to be activated on the moment the wings sweeps open.

 

For the pilot, he selects the rockets as normal, so for example Hornet pilot it is just selection of "68S" and good to go. If the pilot doesn't want to waste APKWS II rockets as dumb rockets, it is required to confirm that there is a target painted with proper laser either by JTAC, friend or by using own TPOD.

 

Here is the whole process of the APKWS setup:

 

You are not going to set the launcher to be a RIPPLE firing all the rockets, but only SINGLE fire. That is done in the Mission Editor for the Hornet:

As you are not going to waste those rockets when you have guidance module in them.

The same thing is with Harrier:

 

There is no connection between the APKWS rockets and the aircraft. You only send the launching signal. But in DCS there is unrealistic feature anyways where you configure the laser codes of the weapons itself, while that in reality is set only by the ground crew with screwdriver.

So what the pilot should do, is to check their briefing data for codes and program their targeting pod to use proper laser code.

 

apkws-image02.jpg

 

Right now one can go and proceed to fire APKWS II rockets properly, just without them loaded. You simply use TPOD to designate target and laze it. And select the 68S, aim at the proper manner (40 degree FOV, max range for the rocket as usual) and remember just keep laser code right and firing when launching rockets.

 

When the APKWS II rockets would come, they would then "magically" guide themselves at the target. Nothing else changing than you remember to rearm/arm the aircraft with them.

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APKWS II has no modifications for the software.

 

In my comment I was referencing the notion that weapons in DCS need to be recoded for each aircraft,

 

As for APKWS, whilst a stock aircraft would still shoot them just fine, there is an accompanying software and hardware update (seeker fov indications and a longer launch tube afaik.)

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In my comment I was referencing the notion that weapons in DCS need to be recoded for each aircraft

 

No they don't for any other than just implement the system. Once the missile is launched, the missile becomes property of the ED own weapon and its flight performance. This has been reason why Heatblur made their own versions of some weapons because they wanted something else than ED offered.

 

Your task is just to add the 3D model to wing properly and then make your own systems as in your aircraft.

 

As for APKWS, whilst a stock aircraft would still shoot them just fine, there is an accompanying software and hardware update (seeker fov indications and a longer launch tube afaik.)

 

There is nothing changed in the software. Zero. Nada.

 

You can even use completely standard launch tube, you just don't have same cover as with the extended one for APKWS II. If you want to restore and maintain the rockets in warehouses (rotate them in service) then you like to have a extended pod. But that is not about modification for the launcher, it is just the rocket pod.

 

The army doesn't always use those for their helicopters, yes the APKWS II has the own special version for helicopters but the principles are same, just the seeker has little differences.

You can see these APKWS II rockets extended further out in normal rocket pods, even in the Polychip OH-58 Kiowa Warrior.

 

We can play this game all day along, but there is nothing to be changed in the launching platform to be able launch APKWS II rockets.

 

apkws-image01.jpg

 

The whole project goal was that it is backward compatible and no training to minimal training was required. So pilot goes just normally launching rockets, no special modes, no special targeting cues or anything required.

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The whole project goal was that it is backward compatible and no training to minimal training was required. So pilot goes just normally launching rockets, no special modes, no special targeting cues or anything required.

 

Query then, why does the Huey require a new sight system (SCS 7) to use APKWS

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Query then, why does the Huey require a new sight system (SCS 7) to use APKWS

 

Likely because the existing sight/software was inadequate for the task.

 

• Pilots provided positive feedback on all SCS 7.1 enhancements over SCS 6.0 software.

 

• The virtual targeting reticle reduces pilot workload for APKWS employment while the aircraft is within the parameters for APKWS launch.

 

• Expansion of the reticle’s indicating range is needed beyond the current APKWS launch envelope because whenever the aircraft is outside that envelope in any parameter, the reticle parks on the aircraft datum line and stays there.

 

• Pilots complained the parked reticle provides no information on how to get back within the launch window, which can hinder the ability to fire the APKWS accurately in that situation.

 

APKWS-II-system-NAVAIR.jpg

 

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2015/navy/2015h-1upgrades.pdf?ver=2019-08-22-105642-113

 

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2012/armaments/Tuesday14006paras.pdf

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New sights and software increase the effectiveness, but the weapon ought to be a bolt-on upgrade without other software requirements at a bare minimum.

 

When we initially fielded APKWS and started doing offboard lases, the Hueys had no aiming cues at all. This meant our ideal usage was at night where I (the buddy laser) would be firing both the designator and the IR pointer at the target simultaneously, so they would have something to orient the nose on.

 

Daytime employment was more complicated, and would often require an additional mark to give them a stake in the ground.

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Query then, why does the Huey require a new sight system (SCS 7) to use APKWS

 

Does it? Manufacturer says that it doesn't.

 

Please provide evidence that new sight is required so you can aim the laser guided rocket properly on the target and without the new sight you can't aim and so on launch it, or get it guided at the target.

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There's a difference between "absolutely required" vs "good to have". Maybe it's not actually strictly required, but could be good to have such software upgrades, to help ensure success and not waste such PGM's.

 

There is difference "updated with other update" as well "updated because "good to have"".

 

All manufacturer data tells there is no need as there is no communication between rockets and launching platform. The 40° (+/- 20°) seeker has longer detection capabilities to spot laser spot than rocket can even reach.

 

The pilot use the rocket exactly as any non-guided rockets. Exactly same launch requirements as the rocket itself is autonomous with Lock-On-After-Launch.

 

1) get the target designated with laser and known code in rockets (ie. 1688).

2) point the rocket inside that 40° angle at the target with a proper distance (relative to angle of aiming).

3) Fire rocket.

 

Example look at the OH-58 Kiowa Warrior. Pilots doesn't use sights for firing guns as the only official mean to aim is to use MFD where the MMS is boresighted to cannon and shows aiming cue on it.

But instead staring a display HDD, they use grease pen to mark a aiming dot to canopy and they use it to initiate the firing and then go by the effect on target.

 

Where do you want, or even need a aiming reticle? When you are at close range and rocket that in 0.5-1 second time starts guidance. In that time the rocket has flown already X meters straight. Let's say a 150 meters (there are photos of test firing where wings are already out just tens meters from launchpod) and if you are aiming 15 degree off from the target (fairly big error) then the rocket requires X distance to steer toward it.

 

Pilot with a grease pen marker on screen is expected to be able aim rocket on target with about +/- 5 degrees at 1 km distance. And if you have a collimator sight then it is very easy as your head movements don't matter.

 

Now comes the question for all of us...

 

1) What aiming reticle "SCS 7" is, and why attack helicopters don't need it but cargo helicopters do?

 

2) Does fighters need "SCS 7" update?

 

3) Why aiming a laser guided rocket is like aiming a unguided rocket?

(to understand this, think it as why the AGM-65 should be launched by perfect aiming, instead inside "keyhole")?

 

4) Why it is required to aim in 2-5 MOA accuracy a laser guided rocket?

 

So far manufacturer says "No software, No hardware modifications required on launching platform".

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New sights and software increase the effectiveness, but the weapon ought to be a bolt-on upgrade without other software requirements at a bare minimum.[/Quote]

 

So as you know what the "SCS 7" is, what it is then? Does it have a LST to point a pilot where designation is and fire at proper direction?

 

When we initially fielded APKWS and started doing offboard lases, the Hueys had no aiming cues at all.

....

Daytime employment was more complicated, and would often require an additional mark to give them a stake in the ground.

 

How did UH-1Y pilots aim unguided rockets before?

 

UH-1Y_USS_San_Deigo.jpg

 

And how did the UH-1N pilots do it?

 

120131-N-XK513-120_Sailor_directs_a_UH-1N_Huey_helicopter_from_%28VMM%29_261_%28cropped%29.jpg

 

All the optical systems, rockets and all, but no aiming cues and challenges at day time?

 

We know how a UH-1H does the aiming....

 

To me it sounds that many are trying to make the APKWS II to sound more challenging to aim than a unguided rockets. That pilot needs to be more accurate with the aiming, and there is requirement to add a new special mode reticle via software as the rocket ballistics are so much different (same by the manufacturer, even better as rocket can glide) or there is some kind connection between the launching platform and rockets than what unguided didn't need....

 

So "problem waiting a solution" is like it is wanted to be.

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