Hornet vs Viper

Just curious about what others think.

 

Which do you like better for BVR and BFM?

 

No interest in the other fighters. So, let's keep it to just these two planes.

 

Thanks.

If the pilot knows how to maintain energy, I think the viper wins at both BVR and BFM because the viper likes to turn at faster speeds.

 

If the engagement happens near a ocean, far away from friendly airbase, hornet wins because the viper can’t be there.

I consider the F-16 the better fighter. They're both agile but the F-16 can climb and accelerate, which will let you control the battle. The F-18 only really feels like a fighter when configured for intercept, so 2 cheek mounted AIM-120 and 2 wingtip AIM-9. The F-16 performs well with 6 AMRAAM and a center fuel tank. Even with two fuel tanks it feels OK.

 

 

Avionics wise the F-18 has a stronger radar (80+ miles vs ~60 miles) but the F-16's isn't bad. I also think the F-16's controls and cockpit layout are better, and the canopy is great for SA.

 

 

In a dogfight it's a closer match, the Hornet has ridiculous AoA capability, while the F-16 is limited (this is the inverse of high speed where the F-18 has a g limiter that you need to look out for). The F-18 wins by dragging things down to low speed. The F-16 wins through acceleration and speed. Both have the AIM-9X though so turning might not even be all that necessary depending on the situation.

If the engagement happens near a ocean, far away from friendly airbase, hornet wins because the viper can’t be there.

 

You made a funny. :)

BFM I kind of prefer the power/weight ratio of f16, even if Hornet feels a bit easier than viper at lower speed.

 

For BVR I tend to put the Hornet above the Viper, because of the quantity of missiles it can carry is better and matches the radar perf.

 

Hornet's radar is supposed to be effective at better distances, and in TWS mode, with 10 simultaneous targets in range as system files, the Hornet can launch 10 aim120c in 10 seconds, and still have aim9x for self defense.

 

On the other hand the Viper only carry 6 aim120c actually with no other rack for heat seekers.

 

But that is just "numbers" regarding single aircraft, fly as 3 Vipers instead of 2 Hornets and this difference is fading.

I consider the F-16 the better fighter. They're both agile but the F-16 can climb and accelerate, which will let you control the battle. The F-18 only really feels like a fighter when configured for intercept, so 2 cheek mounted AIM-120 and 2 wingtip AIM-9. The F-16 performs well with 6 AMRAAM and a center fuel tank. Even with two fuel tanks it feels OK.

 

 

Avionics wise the F-18 has a stronger radar (80+ miles vs ~60 miles) but the F-16's isn't bad. I also think the F-16's controls and cockpit layout are better, and the canopy is great for SA.

 

 

In a dogfight it's a closer match, the Hornet has ridiculous AoA capability, while the F-16 is limited (this is the inverse of high speed where the F-18 has a g limiter that you need to look out for). The F-18 wins by dragging things down to low speed. The F-16 wins through acceleration and speed. Both have the AIM-9X though so turning might not even be all that necessary depending on the situation.

 

We think alike. I love the Viper from flying the other sim for so long. However, I try to avoid a gunfight with a Hornet.

BFM I kind of prefer the power/weight ratio of f16, even if Hornet feels a bit easier than viper at lower speed.

 

For BVR I tend to put the Hornet above the Viper, because of the quantity of missiles it can carry is better and matches the radar perf.

 

Hornet's radar is supposed to be effective at better distances, and in TWS mode, with 10 simultaneous targets in range as system files, the Hornet can launch 10 aim120c in 10 seconds, and still have aim9x for self defense.

 

On the other hand the Viper only carry 6 aim120c actually with no other rack for heat seekers.

 

But that is just "numbers" regarding single aircraft, fly as 3 Vipers instead of 2 Hornets and this difference is fading.

 

Thanks.

I agree that Viper is better in BVR and BFM. The higher thrust and lower drag means better kinematics for missiles and better performance in BVR maneuvering. In BFM the Viper can manage energy better than the Hornet. In both realms I like the avionics and HOTAS on the Viper much better. The two advantages to the Hornet - more missiles, better control at high AoA - don't make up for the Viper's advantages IMO.

I consider the F-16 the better fighter. They're both agile but the F-16 can climb and accelerate, which will let you control the battle. The F-18 only really feels like a fighter when configured for intercept, so 2 cheek mounted AIM-120 and 2 wingtip AIM-9. The F-16 performs well with 6 AMRAAM and a center fuel tank. Even with two fuel tanks it feels OK.

 

 

Avionics wise the F-18 has a stronger radar (80+ miles vs ~60 miles) but the F-16's isn't bad. I also think the F-16's controls and cockpit layout are better, and the canopy is great for SA.

 

 

In a dogfight it's a closer match, the Hornet has ridiculous AoA capability, while the F-16 is limited (this is the inverse of high speed where the F-18 has a g limiter that you need to look out for). The F-18 wins by dragging things down to low speed. The F-16 wins through acceleration and speed. Both have the AIM-9X though so turning might not even be all that necessary depending on the situation.

 

Its not true. F-18C is better in BVR, it can carry 10 AMRAAMS. And it has much better radar (AN\APG-73 is better than AN\APG-65). And lets dont forget, that Hornet has two engines, which provides more survivable.

Its not true. F-18C is better in BVR, it can carry 10 AMRAAMS. And it has much better radar (AN\APG-73 is better than AN\APG-65). And lets dont forget, that Hornet has two engines, which provides more survivable.

 

 

AND it's flown by Navy pilots, who have consistently proven to have much better facial hair than Air Force pilots. Better mirrored sunglasses, too.

 

 

If the F-104 was a missile with a man in it, the F-16 is an engine with a cockpit. The F-18 was designed to be multi-role. They both have their advantages and drawbacks.

 

 

 

It's the driver, not the crate.

 

It's the driver, not the crate.

 

True but with this question both pilots need to have the same skill and experience. It's the only way to compare two planes.

Its not true. F-18C is better in BVR, it can carry 10 AMRAAMS. And it has much better radar (AN\APG-73 is better than AN\APG-65). And lets dont forget, that Hornet has two engines, which provides more survivable.

 

If its a question of the hornet vs the viper head to head, the quantity of missiles is irrelevant. You can fire them all at the viper and hit nothing but air. There is merit to the quantity against a number of lesser threats. The viper has the speed and climb rate advantage meaning they can evade incoming threats better, extend, and recommit. A properly setup shot on a hornet is either a kill or force cold. If the viper wants the hornet dead , it can be run down. I've killed hornets in PVP with long range rear aspect shots because they don't have the speed to pull away.

Its not true. F-18C is better in BVR, it can carry 10 AMRAAMS.

That's a niche trick, not really an advantage. It's great for taking out waves of bombers, but you won't need that many missiles most of the time and while you're carrying them they're slowing you down and costing you fuel.

 

 

The F-16 has the payload advantage because its performance isn't crippled by being loaded with air to air weapons. If a 6 AMRAAM F-16 goes up against a 10 AMRAAM F-18, all else equal, the F-16 wins by having missiles with more energy and more ability to evade incoming missiles.

 

 

 

And it has much better radar (AN\APG-73 is better than AN\APG-65). And lets dont forget, that Hornet has two engines, which provides more survivable.

The Hornet has the better radar, but the F-16 will still detect targets well beyond visual range and in my opinion makes it easier for the pilot to manage contacts in TWS (but that might be bias because I fly the F-16 more). The F-16 also has a low RCS which helps to mitigate its slight disadvantage in detection range.

Exorcet, all that you are wrоte is totally wrong.

 

And you forget one engine...BOOM.

 

F-18 Wins. Sorry mate.

If its a question of the hornet vs the viper head to head, the quantity of missiles is irrelevant. You can fire them all at the viper and hit nothing but air.

 

That sounds like a really bad comic book and is obviously false.

 

Its the driver not the plane that wins the fight. BFM aswell as BVR.

 

The expectation of some people that you autowin BFM because you fly plane X just bends my mind.

 

There are fighting styles in which the viper is superior and will win yes, but the same is true for the hornet. So the trick is to force the other dude to fight your fight.

 

But I guess thats not as easy as just winning by plane choice and comparing random numbers so it obviously cant be true.

That sounds like a really bad comic book and is obviously false.

 

Its the driver not the plane that wins the fight. BFM aswell as BVR.

 

The expectation of some people that you autowin BFM because you fly plane X just bends my mind.

 

There are fighting styles in which the viper is superior and will win yes, but the same is true for the hornet. So the trick is to force the other dude to fight your fight.

 

But I guess thats not as easy as just winning by plane choice and comparing random numbers so it obviously cant be true.

 

Its a statement that assumes equal skill, as far as this sim is concerned. Driving each simulated jet to its maximum in a BVR engagement put the viper well ahead. The viper pilot needs to make some mistakes to end up playing the hornets game, the jets capabilities lends it more room to correct course so to speak. The is no magic or skill involved in turning cold from an incoming threat, but if I pull a split S doing mach 1.6 in front of an unseen bandit at 4nm at it takes is the will to keep running to not get killed. Happened when I was in a Eagle, but I knew the guy firing on my 6 didn't have the speed to actually catch an kill me. If I had been in anything slower, no amount of skill would have saved me.

No interest in the other fighters.

lmao this is the howmanyeth time you've said that?

 

you'll buy them both

see you next time

Regarding the Hornet being eventually slower / having more drag with a 10-120c + 2-9x config is also not very true.

Viper needs much more external tanks to keep up with range, which impacts drag.

lmao this is the howmanyeth time you've said that?

 

you'll buy them both

see you next time

 

I don't remember ever saying it. I've had the Hornet since it was released.

 

My question has nothing to do with what i'll own or fly. I make those decisions. I'm just curious how others feel about which plane has an advantage. If everybody said the Viper sucks. I'd still fly it. I've been doing it for 20 years.

Exorcet, all that you are wrоte is totally wrong.

You can disagree with my opinions, but the F-16 is superior in terms of kinematics, that's a fact. In an equal encounter it gets the first shot and it's harder to hit.

 

 

And you forget one engine...BOOM.

The Hornet's rather narrow fuselage means it essentially has a single engine as far as a missile is concerned. Anyway in DCS I don't think I've had a F-18 that survived on a single engine, or survived a missile impact at all. The F-16's single engine aspect is only an issue if you're dealing with potential engine failures and even then, that's not likely to happen.

 

Regarding the Hornet being eventually slower / having more drag with a 10-120c + 2-9x config is also not very true.

Viper needs much more external tanks to keep up with range, which impacts drag.

I have yet to directly test the range of both aircraft but they are comparable in terms of external fuel fraction, so range should be similar. On internal fuel the Hornet has the advantage.

Purely anecdotally from my experience, but as it stands right now, given equal skill and starting conditions, I don't see how the Hornet loses to the Viper in BFM. I find the Viper underwhelming in close, it bleeds crazy amounts of energy with light manoeuvres and despite it's stated T/W seems I find it next to impossible to pick up speed again without having it straight and level.

Its a very close match. In a BVR scenario i think the viper is superior as it can give more energy to its shots versus the hornet, it can also abandon the fight if he wants to. This only holds true for DCS, in real life the hornet built in jammer and more powerful radar can probably deny a first shot.

 

The hornet can in fact carry more amraams, this will let him "waste" long range shots to force the bandit defensive". That is a plus for him.

 

In a dogfight situation is just the better pilot who will win. In a CAC with both planes having 9x, the sutpidly crazy hornet nose ability (pulling the g override) will allow him a first shot in a neutral merge.

 

So for me: BVR 1 vs 1 F16, BVR against multiple bombers F18, CAC with 9X hornet, guns only dogfight (its just the better pilot) but maybe the F16.

True but with this question both pilots need to have the same skill and experience. It's the only way to compare two planes.

 

 

It gets worse. Today pilot A might be on her game and own the engagement, tomorrow pilot B is feeling good and cleans house. The day after that it might change again.

 

 

 

Yes, a more capable aircraft may allow a pilot to get away with more mistakes in some cases. For my money (I own them both) they're a wash from the perspective of hardware. Pick one, own it, and spend the hours to get proficient.

 

 

The only reason I spend most of my time in the F-18 is the manly hook. The F-16 has a dainty little hook that, while cute, isn't very useful. Then again, given my lack of proficiency around the boat I'm not sure hook size matters. I just taxi up to the one wire most of the time, and I'm always left of center (yeah, the bloody runway moves sideways. I'm getting used to it.)

The differences are pretty marginal, with lots of offsets, caveats, exceptions, pros, cons, and situational variations on both sides. But as most people are saying, I think the F/A-18 gets the nod for BVR engagements, and BFM goes to the F-16.

 

I do not believe there is a better dogfighter in DCS than the Viper. Which isn't making a grandiose statement of superiority or anything. It merely means that if you're flying the Viper and get your butt kicked in 1v1 BFM, you have no excuses.

This is one of the more amusing threads I've read here in a while :music_whistling: