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ESSAY, PART 3: Landing and stopping.


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Thanks for the responses

 

I actually read where Bud Anderson said he could power off with a Spitfire and was curious about it...He was talking about how he got washed out of the Spitfire program for going out and getting drunk and coming back late for duty or something like that LOL.

 

I practiced last night like you would with a 172 etc.. at 1K Ft in the pattern and reduced RPM and Throttle in the pattern aligned with the runways end and was able to land quite successfully.

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When you guys fly the pattern do you try and do power off approaches/landings?

 

Was/is that something war bird guys do?

 

Just curious if thats part of operating procedure with a warbird?

 

If you are going to join multiplayer and take it half serious or just fight the AI in the sim offline, then you better lean to land deadstick in paddock:)

 

At least you walked away with some dignity, without bailing out.

 

Nothing like a few good machine gun rounds or autocannon fire to ruin your day:cry: It's Bad enough flying and landing these types of aircraft proficient without crashing.

 

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I did a nice landing on an aircraft carrier right at the second attempt.

 


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  • 1 month later...

Is it ok to use the cockpit baffles as guide to staying on centerline or thereof? I mean the runway visible parts on your right and left, being in peripheral vision, is it normal practice?

 

Can I open the side door?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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  • 4 months later...
So here's part 3 of my conscious stream...

 

Taming Tail-draggers Part 3 – Landing

...

 

Amazing write up, Chief.

 

Your advice is logical, clear, and concise. I really like this.

 

Two things to say:

 

1. I can land and take off fairly smoothly after reading and following this advice.

 

I had to loosen my pedals (as I usually fly helos), but the 'wake up feet' advice really does work.

 

The other essential aspect was trimming and braking. If I trim correctly, I hardly notice when I contact the ground and don't even need to touch the brake. I land only on paved runways atm.

 

2. Would you consider posting this as a Steam guide if you haven't already? A lot of the newer / more casual players will never visit this forum. It would be good for them to get this information.

 

Thank you for the effort you must have put in to this.

 

Fly safe.

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  • 2 years later...
. Unless you’re landing on a very short strip, or indeed at the wrong end of a long one, then you probably won’t need to brake at all in reality.

 

 

 

CFI

 

Is it actually possible to achieve stopping without using brakes in the DCS Spitfire? No matter how well I manage to perform my landings, the plane always steers once it slows down a little and then I have to use differential braking to get it back straight with the runway (and for not hitting the wing on the ground too). And when I say "slows down a little", I mean it's still going fast, not at taxi speed. Thus, I manage to stop without making any damage, but it looks a bit abrupt and perhaps unsafe for real life standards... Any suggestions?

 

Thank you very much for the essays!

 

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Is it actually possible to achieve stopping without using brakes in the DCS Spitfire? No matter how well I manage to perform my landings, the plane always steers once it slows down a little and then I have to use differential braking to get it back straight with the runway (and for not hitting the wing on the ground too). And when I say "slows down a little", I mean it's still going fast, not at taxi speed. Thus, I manage to stop without making any damage, but it looks a bit abrupt and perhaps unsafe for real life standards... Any suggestions?

 

Thank you very much for the essays!

 

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

 

Well, you may need to use a little differential braking to maintain directional control but not necessarily for overall speed retardation. There are no hard and fast rules. Ultimately, you should do whatever works and keeps you on the runway!

 

Best wishes,

 

CFI

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Is it actually possible to achieve stopping without using brakes in the DCS Spitfire?

 

I have done it but only in zero cross wind conditions. Even so, I was working the rudder hard.

 

Keeping the Spitfire straight on the roll-out is one of those things that takes a great deal of practice - try using only half rudder deflections and only 1/3 to 1/2 brake inputs. The sooner you get an input in, the smaller it needs to be.

 

Eventually you'll be making rudder and brake inputs almost unconsciously and it will become second nature - until you get complacent/over confident/distracted at which point the Spitty will remind you very quickly of your transgression!

 

One thing a lot of DCS jet jockeys don't seem to appreciate when they come to the Spitty (and some of the other warbirds) is that on the ground you will be using the rudder constantly - that this was the de riguer for aircraft of that era and such things as tail-wheel locks were a luxury that only start becoming required features on later aircraft of that generation.

 

This then is the price of free castoring tailwheel tail dragger aircraft - and part of the fun!

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This video is well worth a watch for anyone interested in taildraggers...

 

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... but not necessarily for overall speed retardation.

 

I have done it but only in zero cross wind conditions.

 

Thank you both! I will keep on trying.

 

Although I've been virtually flying for over 20 years I always used my MS FF2 twist stick until I received my MFG pedals a week ago and I am now discovering a whole new level of flying on the spit.

 

Chief, I found your essays very interesting and informative, and it'd be very nice if you could write a fourth part about flying the bird properly... I'm not sure but I guess I mean things like using correct trimming, using the rudder appropriately etc. Trial and error are the way to go in sims, but any further information on the theory of flying birds like the spit would be more than welcome.

 

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First tip: Ailerons are of the Frise type. This means on the down going wing that the ailerons nose pokes into the airstream, creating drag. This is good as it counteracts the induced drag of the up going wing so you'll have far less adverse yaw effects than with other warbirds in the sim. This however, only applies for small to moderate aileron displacements - one you start throwing the stick side to side with a little less finesse, you'll need to introduce some coordinated rudder to keep the nose tracking along the roll of the axis and make the roll less sloppy (and ergo lose less speed).

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First tip: Ailerons are of the Frise type. This means on the down going wing that the ailerons nose pokes into the airstream, creating drag. This is good as it counteracts the induced drag of the up going wing so you'll have far less adverse yaw effects than with other warbirds in the sim. This however, only applies for small to moderate aileron displacements - one you start throwing the stick side to side with a little less finesse, you'll need to introduce some coordinated rudder to keep the nose tracking along the roll of the axis and make the roll less sloppy (and ergo lose less speed).

 

Indeed, I watched this video the other day that pretty much refers to what you mention:

 

 

It one of the very few informative videos on YouTube on this matter and if I'm not mistaken it sums up to right turn--right rudder. I've been practicing that in the last few days.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Chief Instructor, I know it's been several years now but can't thank you enough for these three essays you've written. All the issues you've mentioned like ground looping after a nice three point landing, and the tendency for msot of use to input smooth rudder inputs (as if we're flying tricycle gear aircraft) are spot on the money.

 

I wish I'd seen these posts earlier, as it would've saved me a lot of frustration and embarrassment from the number of loops I've done whilst taxiing and landing lol! Going to share this with some of the folks in my squadron who fly the WWII birds (in both DCS and IL-2), I think even some of the more experienced guys there would still learn a thing or two here!

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On 5/27/2020 at 7:33 AM, DD_Fenrir said:

 

Keeping the Spitfire straight on the roll-out is one of those things that takes a great deal of practice - try using only half rudder deflections and only 1/3 to 1/2 brake inputs. The sooner you get an input in, the smaller it needs to be.

 

That is a large part of the secret to the Spit, well that and a lot of practice

 

Nearly everybody I know who tries it at first, over controls which is natural, the trick IMHO is small early rudder input once on the runway the phrase I've heard a lot, and it's bang on, is "dance on the pedals". Even during taxi if the rudder inputs are small and early it usually runs reasonably straight with little brake input required

 

Apart from being pretty quickly on the throttle when taking off, everything else is small inputs

 

Generally I try not to flare but fly it level over the runway then let it settle down itself. This nearly always results in a touchdown first time and if it bounces, as the nose is nearly level, makes a small to medium bounce uneventful. Once down I just smoothly pull back on the stick, yanking on it can result in a bounce and generally unsettles it.

 

I don't apply brakes till the speed is well down, if you get the rudder inputs right at touchdown, which I don't quite often, it will roll fairly straight.

 

The video of the Spit pilot applying the brakes is interesting too, I tried that a few times, relatively light fast pulsing and that works well for me too

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  • 4 months later...
On 2/13/2021 at 12:21 PM, Weegie said:

Generally I try not to flare but fly it level over the runway then let it settle down itself

That's the definition of flaring, IMO. Rewording your sentence, "I try not to flare, but I flare". And you do right 😉.

 

In the Spit XI video, he's just braking, you have to stop the beast at some point, the runway is asphalt and it's wet. You can tell she's running down the runway faster than usual and unwilling to stop by herself. Those short bursts of brake are always better than a continued braking, usually in any aeroplane not just de Spit, but in that situation it's just mandatory.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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58 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

That's the definition of flaring, IMO. Rewording your sentence, "I try not to flare, but I flare". And you do right 😉.

 

In the Spit XI video, he's just braking, you have to stop the beast at some point, the runway is asphalt and it's wet. You can tell she's running down the runway faster than usual and unwilling to stop by herself. Those short bursts of brake are always better than a continued braking, usually in any aeroplane not just de Spit, but in that situation it's just mandatory.

 

S!

 

 

I'm not a pilot so perhaps I've misunderstood the definition of "flaring" 🙄

 

I took flaring to mean the application of back stick, pointing the nose upward to slow the aircraft just prior to touchdown.

 

With the Spit instead I fly level allowing it to sink by itself onto the runway, once the wheels touch, smoothly apply full back stick to get the tail down.

 

If 3 pointing I'd need to "flare" (my deifinition) to achieve the correct attitude for all 3 wheels to contact the runway at the same time

 

Been a while since I've used the module though, must go back and see if my thechnique still works

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"Flaring" as far as i understand it, is a process of reducing sink rate  just before touch down.

I don't know how you land your warbirds in dcs, but my way of doing it is to make final approach with as low power as possible, so my glide to runway is very steep, i flare the plane to end up couple feet above ground then i hold it and wait until plane will land it self.

Reason why i do it that way is to be able to have good view of the airfield to position my plane as good as possible, if i do flat approach i can see shit. I cant see traffic on taxi ways, traffic on run way etc.

This landign shows how i flare in case of P-47 when power off it sinks hard.

 


Edited by grafspee
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2 hours ago, Weegie said:

 

I'm not a pilot so perhaps I've misunderstood the definition of "flaring" 🙄

 

I took flaring to mean the application of back stick, pointing the nose upward to slow the aircraft just prior to touchdown.

 

With the Spit instead I fly level allowing it to sink by itself onto the runway, once the wheels touch, smoothly apply full back stick to get the tail down.

 

If 3 pointing I'd need to "flare" (my deifinition) to achieve the correct attitude for all 3 wheels to contact the runway at the same time

 

Been a while since I've used the module though, must go back and see if my thechnique still works

Yeah, that's correct and you do it right. You can flare short, or you can flare long, you are just adjusting to a long flare in order to reduce your speed even further for a three pointer, or you could make it shorter and end up in a two pointer (not by chance, you've to make it happen). That's talking about Spitfire, but you could make it really short if you aren't specially fast and that's Ok if undercarriage holds the impact (usually it does in sims, not so your kidneys IRL), so it's quite usual in sim pilots. And you could not flare at all even if you try like in a Hornet in perfect AoA, quite reluctant to flare in that condition, or Ryanair pilots reluctant to passengers' comfort 😅 .

 

But that's good, you can now use your flaring technique not just in Spitfire but in any other aircraft either since that's mostly the correct way to go :thumbup:.

 

  

1 hour ago, grafspee said:

I don't know how you land your warbirds in dcs, but my way of doing it is to make final approach with as low power as possible, so my glide to runway is very steep,

If your glide path is steep but you come with lower engine setting that's correct though a different thing. It means you avoid getting into lower power curve, that's nicer than getting into it hence coming low and hanging on the engine with high manifold but with a huge nose in front of your view. You know, lower part of the power curve is when you need more power to fly slower. IRL getting into lower power curve zone for landing is not good because in the event of engine failure you're dead, but in the sim that's not a concern so people abuse it.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar
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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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43 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

 

 IRL getting into lower power curve zone for landing is not good because in the event of engine failure you're dead, but in the sim that's not a concern so people abuse it.

 

This statement make no sense for me, if i would know that my engine will fail 300m off the runway i would choose always power off approach.

If i would choose high power approach so very flat descent, i would be dead i case of power lose engine fail.

In matter of fact , i can cut my mixture during my approach and i will be fine i have extra height for power off final approach


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Well, that's the thing, IRL you never know when an engine failure is going to happen, so procedures tend to seek for safety first, hence ideally you use higher power curve and steeper descend always. RL procedures always works assuming you could have an engine failure at any time, either taking off or landing. Some times anyway you have to go there even if you don't want to for whatever reason, a short runway in a bad place for instance or whatever. It's like death curve in helicopters, you try never, ever, getting there but sometimes they can't avoid getting into it, like mountain rescue and that kind of stuff. Mountain rescue is a highly dangerous activity for helicopter pilots with lots of accidents, guess why.

 

Since all of those considerations doesn't apply in the sim, people fly in whatever fashion they like, but in DCS while we don't have random failures, the benefits or not of using either technique can be easily told unlike any other sim. You two just discovered by yourselves what's a better way from experience after doing it wrong, telling what's best in a given scenario from that experience, so actually "discovering" the right way it's flown in real life even though you didn't know what you were actually doing or how it's called from an aviation theory standpoint. Wonder why DCS is such a good sim that any other can match in that regard? 😉

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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9 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Well, that's the thing, IRL you never know when an engine failure is going to happen, so procedures tend to seek for safety first, hence ideally you use higher power curve and steeper descend always. RL procedures always works assuming you could have an engine failure at any time, either taking off or landing. Some times anyway you have to go there even if you don't want to for whatever reason, a short runway in a bad place for instance or whatever. It's like death curve in helicopters, you try never, ever, getting there but sometimes they can't avoid getting into it, like mountain rescue and that kind of stuff. Mountain rescue is a highly dangerous activity for helicopter pilots with lots of accidents, guess why.

 

Since all of those considerations doesn't apply in the sim, people fly in whatever fashion they like, but in DCS while we don't have random failures the benefits, or not, of using either technique can be easily told unlike any other sim. You two just discovered by yourselves what's a better way from experience after doing it wrong, telling what's best in a given scenario from that experience, so actually "discovering" the right way it's flown in real life even though you didn't know what you were actually doing or how it's called from an aviation theory standpoint. Wonder why DCS is such a good sim that any other can match in that regard? 😉

 

S!

I know what assumption are under consideration, but saying that high power approach is safer in case of engine fail, somehow doesn't speak to me.

For me high power approach always will be more flat then off power, so again saying that IRL you are seeking high power and steep approaches make no sense again.

There is another issue when engine fail at high power approach is quite substantial untrimmed plane, when in power off approach you will not even notes if you lost the engine 😛  So it is good to leave some power just to able to know if your engine runs 🙂 


Edited by grafspee

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