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Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing


LJQCN101

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This is a good read about installing on speed AOA indexer in GA aircraft and having the appropriate training, for safety reasons.

 

"Airplane owners should consider installing an AOA indicator, which, coupled with pilot understanding and training on how to best use it, can enhance situational awareness during critical or high-workload phases of flight. FAA, aviation advocacy groups, type clubs, and manufacturers, including kit manufacturers, should create and maintain educational initiatives that include general principals, best practices, and operational specifics as they relate to loss of control."

 

www.ntsb.gov/safety

 

University of North Dakota research Associate professor Jim Higgins converted masses of flight data monitoring program (115,000 annual flights of the university’s fleet of 120 aircraft) into an impressive conclusion, when he commented:

 

“On the base-to-final turn, the aircraft nose would typically drop about 0.7 degrees more on airplanes equipped with AOA indicators than on those without. ‘One interpretation would be that pilots are responding to the angle of attack awareness and lowering the nose when turning final.’”

 

http://jdasolutions.aero/blog/aoa-indicator/

 

Cessna’s Voluntary AoA system Inclusion In the 172 Skyhawks.

 

So it's not just for Navy pilots this technique and skill set, many seem to think this would help stop accidents with GA if implemented with the correct training.

 

.


Edited by David OC

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This is a good read about installing on speed AOA indexer in GA aircraft and having the appropriate training, for safety reasons.

 

"Airplane owners should consider installing an AOA indicator, which, coupled with pilot understanding and training on how to best use it, can enhance situational awareness during critical or high-workload phases of flight. FAA, aviation advocacy groups, type clubs, and manufacturers, including kit manufacturers, should create and maintain educational initiatives that include general principals, best practices, and operational specifics as they relate to loss of controol.

 

www.ntsb.gov/safety

 

University of North Dakota research Associate professor Jim Higgins converted masses of flight data monitoring program (115,000 annual flights of the university’s fleet of 120 aircraft) into an impressive conclusion, when he commented:

 

“On the base-to-final turn, the aircraft nose would typically drop about 0.7 degrees more on airplanes equipped with AOA indicators than on those without. ‘One interpretation would be that pilots are responding to the angle of attack awareness and lowering the nose when turning final.’”

 

http://jdasolutions.aero/blog/aoa-indicator/

 

Cessna’s Voluntary AoA system Inclusion In the 172 Skyhawks.

 

So it's not just for Navy pilots this technique and skill set, many seem to think this would help stop accidents with GA if implemented with the correct training.

 

.

 

This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You

Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.


Edited by SnappShot
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This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You

Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.

+1 Exactly. (although this is basically off topic) Furthermore the keyword is training and that's what most of the GA pilots are missing.

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Airspeed indicator has inherent flaws, and the AoA gauges fix one of them. For short field landings, the AoA gauge will be much better for your performance and safety margins than your AS gauge. It doesn't matter the DA, the weight or the bank angle. It's always right.

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/mwl/Pages/mwl7_2015.aspx

 

Costs are coming down for GA. But, as good as they are, if you're a crappy pilot, another gauge ain't gonna help you.

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bbrz, I'm here too learning off the pro's, there are many Navy pilots here who got past all that training:cry:

I think they know this stuff right, they practice this technique skill set for the boat, many here are trying to wrap there head around this and why it's done, like ttaylor0024 has said it's tried and tested in blood.

You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.

I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

 

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

 

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

 

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.

 

Well i see but basically the same with a blend of Nz and pitch rate feedback. Unless they are using the C*U law, there's still no airspeed feedback to provide artificial speed stability. Hence do not apparently similar to a hornet.

I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.


Edited by bbrz

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This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You

Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.

 

Airspeed indicator has inherent flaws, and the AoA gauges fix one of them. For short field landings, the AoA gauge will be much better for your performance and safety margins than your AS gauge. It doesn't matter the DA, the weight or the bank angle. It's always right.

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/mwl/Pages/mwl7_2015.aspx

 

Costs are coming down for GA. But, as good as they are, if you're a crappy pilot, another gauge ain't gonna help you.

 

If you were doing small country strips and or short field takeoffs and landings all the time, perhaps not a bad idea to have one installed? From what Ive read, I was reading somewhere how a small plane lost control coming into a short, tight strip to final with a tail wind and lost control as he came around into the tail wind, a gauge would give more warning here I guess, for the approaching stall.

 

.

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...lost control as he came around into the tail wind, a gauge would give more warning here I guess, for the approaching stall.

That's a common misunderstand among non-pilots. (Steady) wind has absolutely no influence on IAS/TAS/AoA!

 

Furthermore if you are approaching a short runway under difficult wind conditions and you are already disregarding the ASI because you are looking out of the window during the turn, it's very likely that you will disregard an AoA gauge as well.


Edited by bbrz

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You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.

I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

 

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

 

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

 

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.

 

 

I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.

 

Well it works for the aircraft I've tried it with in DCS.

 

This was the first post I posted in this thread, on the 2nd page to help others understand this technique skill set for carrier ops, it's from an old thread from another F/A-18 Navy pilot neofightr and his thread.

 

I want to understand this myself, that's all. What your saying is true about the windshear, up and downdrafts, turbulance.

 

To the aircraft with (on speed) AOA, I see this like a boat or sea plane going through water, before it gets "right up" on its skids to fly.

 

It's pushing on the water, if I add a little power the water will lift me up higher. If I set a power setting it will sit there on the same angle plowing through the water correct?

 

seaplanetrainingonaviathusky.jpg

 

All that disturbance you said is just the choppy water or air ahead, it will settle back down to it's on speed AOA, I'm not going to force it there. If it's as bad as you say, there would be many wave offs and bolter's.

 

That does happen on the videos I've seen, especially if you throw in a pitching deck too.:cry: Scary stuff....

 

One last video, I need more practise with the Su33, haven't use it very much, she is more touchy than the A10 when at (on speed) AOA, that's for sure, interested to see what the F/A18 will be like.

 

Throttle and bank, No Pitch

 

 

Over the foul line and 2nd wire.

Bad grade:(

 

.


Edited by David OC

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1.All that disturbance you said is just the choppy water or air ahead, it will settle back down to it's on speed AOA, I'm not going to force it there.

2.If it's as bad as you say, there would be many wave offs and bolter's.

1.It's about precise flight path control and you don't know if the next gust is pushing you away from the localizer/glidepath even further. Again, you don't sit there and hope that everything will smooth out sooner or later.

 

 

2. As I said, I don't know the situation behind the boat, but at least they don't have the problem of e.g. mountainous terrain around them and/or changing terrain surface/height below them...

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1.It's about precise flight path control and you don't know if the next gust is pushing you away from the localizer/glidepath even further. Again, you don't sit there and hope that everything will smooth out sooner or later.

 

2. As I said, I don't know the situation behind the boat, but at least they don't have the problem of e.g. mountainous terrain around them and/or changing terrain surface/height below them...

 

Hawkeye, F/A18 etc

 

This is the technique they use, land and at sea for carrier ops.

 

You are better to be a little high on the glide slope (HIGH BALL), like these guy's have been saying, this would allow for choppy air.

 

Watch these guys learning, they miss the mark and add power to go around in good weather, you don't pull up or push down, just add power and fly away, you are already set for On speed AOA.

 

Add power and you go up:), if you pitch up you slow down:( Bad

 

Re Read Curly's post

 

 

.


Edited by David OC

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You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.

I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

 

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

 

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

 

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.

 

 

I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.

 

While flying the backside technique you apply corrections just as you would in a conventional approach. If you encounter winds you don't wait for aircraft to settle either, you actively aviate. It's just your corrections are different.

 

 

What is the corrective action when encountering a downburst. It's not just pitch. You apply full power, because pitch alone will kill you.

 

The backside techniques work just as well and are safer than conventional corrections for shear. Since the ability to fly a specific glide slope is determined by the power available. During a downburst the power requirement goes up because an external force is acting downwards on the craft. Using the backside technique of adding power for glide slope fixes this.

 

The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?

 

Not really because you've increased drag and made your L/D ratio worse. Your now losing speed.

Since lift = .5 * Cl * air density * velocity^2 * area,

 

We end up with less lift, thus increasing our descent rate. Pitching further compounds the problem we slow further, losing more lift and increasing the descent rate. If we excessively pitch while adding power, your responses are nulling each other out and you don't net out a positive response that will halt the excessive sink rate..

 

You have more power but less lift, it's easy to doom the aircraft in this manner. That's why the only pitching you should be doing is to keep aircraft the aircraft's angle of attack stable. As the wind will be pushing the nose down.

 

The backside technique is safer in shear conditions because, you are responding to forces acting on the aircraft which are disrupting the flight path with opposite opposing forces immediately, rather than responding with actions that trigger a dynamic state which may or may not help you.

 

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

 

http://www.t6bdriver.com/uploads/6/4/7/7/64775059/c3402_briefing_guide_1542.166b.pdf


Edited by Curly
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The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

? We are talking about a totally different issue. It's not about pitching up or down. It's about not actively controlling pitch at all and let the aircraft decide how much and how fast the nose moves up/down on its own.

 

No pilot would even think about recovering from a low position on the glide slope by only increasing pitch (or only increasing power in many aircraft)

 

Concerning windshear. It seems that windshear precaution/recovery is basically always the same, regardless if it's a C152 or an A380, not only in turboprops or the F/A-18.


Edited by bbrz

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There is no different issue bbrz, this is a flying technique / skill set all Navy pilots use to fly any aircraft onto the carrier or when flying from land bases to keep it fresh.

 

I like it! and will be using this technique in my flying, especially in IMC ILS conditions in the A-10C (You need an aircraft with an AOA indexer + ILS for IMC) it lowers the workload, so you can concentrate on the instruments more.:thumbup:

 

In the Navy, it's so you can look outside at the ball/AOA indexer/E bracket and not worry about much else inside the cockpit. As ttaylor0024 has said, he quickly checks (On Speed) AOA (level flight speed), against his rough aircraft weight, if the speeds close to what it should be, he doesn't look at the speed anymore, only the AOA indexer, alignment and ball.

 

.


Edited by David OC

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There is no different issue bbrz, this is a flying technique / skill set all Navy pilots use to fly any aircraft onto the carrier or when flying from land bases to keep it fresh.

 

I like it! and will be using this technique in my flying, especially in IMC ILS conditions in the A-10C (You need an aircraft with an AOA indexer + ILS for IMC) it lowers the workload to concentrate on the instruments.

 

It is a different issue and so far I've seen only U.S. Navy pilots use it.

 

I do wish you success with this method in the A-10 in gusty weather in IMC, but don't be surprised if you have to go-around quite often instead of landing with this method ;)

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I do not know if it has already been posted in this thread, but this video is really interesting not only in description of the magic carpet landing system, but general ship landing techniques and how magic carpet improves it, might give someone a better understanding of what's going on:

 

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It is a different issue and so far I've seen only U.S. Navy pilots use it.

 

I do wish you success with this method in the A-10 in gusty weather in IMC, but don't be surprised if you have to go-around quite often instead of landing with this method ;)

 

It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.

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It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.

Sounds like a pretty impressive piece of equipment, your F/A-18!

 

The mil jets I flew decades ago didn't even have an AoA gauge and the A320 FBW system isn't very capable (and surprisingly slow!)

 

The more I get the F/A-18 to know the more I'm looking forward to the DCS version :) It's going to be interesting if the FBW works like in the real one.

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It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.

 

Sounds like a pretty impressive piece of equipment, your F/A-18!

 

The mil jets I flew decades ago didn't even have an AoA gauge and the A320 FBW system isn't very capable (and surprisingly slow!)

 

The more I get the F/A-18 to know the more I'm looking forward to the DCS version :) It's going to be interesting if the FBW works like in the real one.

 

Come on bbrz,

 

We have two Navy pilots and someone also posting detail technical theory as to why they fly the approach this way in the Navy for safety reasons (Past experience, lessons learn etc)

 

This is the technique the Navy spend a lot of time training on before you can even fly at the carrier, not aircraft specific, this works well on the A10 wings with less power etc.

 

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

 

It's OK if you don't want to believe these Navy pilots or Curly's post?

 

If you are going to pull anything apart to disprove this method the navy teaches to ALL their pilots, Curly's technical theory post is the one to disprove the theory behind it and why it's used on ALL their aircraft.

 

Also neofightr's post, he list many aircraft, they all use this technique and he explains why it was much harder in these older aircraft.

 

There are many other IRL pilots here on the forum also bbrz, don't you think they would say something if this technique shouldn't be flow this way on jets or turbo props? and have a good detail reason as to why to not use the backside technique.

 

While flying the backside technique you apply corrections just as you would in a conventional approach. If you encounter winds you don't wait for aircraft to settle either, you actively aviate. It's just your corrections are different.

 

 

What is the corrective action when encountering a downburst. It's not just pitch. You apply full power, because pitch alone will kill you.

 

The backside techniques work just as well and are safer than conventional corrections for shear. Since the ability to fly a specific glide slope is determined by the power available. During a downburst the power requirement goes up because an external force is acting downwards on the craft. Using the backside technique of adding power for glide slope fixes this.

 

The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?

 

Not really because you've increased drag and made your L/D ratio worse. Your now losing speed.

Since lift = .5 * Cl * air density * velocity^2 * area,

 

We end up with less lift, thus increasing our descent rate. Pitching further compounds the problem we slow further, losing more lift and increasing the descent rate. If we excessively pitch while adding power, your responses are nulling each other out and you don't net out a positive response that will halt the excessive sink rate..

 

You have more power but less lift, it's easy to doom the aircraft in this manner. That's why the only pitching you should be doing is to keep aircraft the aircraft's angle of attack stable. As the wind will be pushing the nose down.

 

The backside technique is safer in shear conditions because, you are responding to forces acting on the aircraft which are disrupting the flight path with opposite opposing forces immediately, rather than responding with actions that trigger a dynamic state which may or may not help you.

 

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

 

http://www.t6bdriver.com/uploads/6/4/7/7/64775059/c3402_briefing_guide_1542.166b.pdf

 

If you are using the stick and throttle to maintain glideslope you are doing it wrong, period regardless of platform. The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA. That is what the pilots are doing in the videos when moving the stick, they are trying to keep that green donut lit and rock steady on the AOA indicator while using the throttle to maintain glideslope by keeping the meatball lined up with the datum lights. That's how it works, period.

 

What AoA Indicators Don't Do That They Should

 

"They're being sold as stall awareness devices when in fact, they're really performance-measuring instruments that happen to include stall warning and awareness capability. If you limit them to the latter, they're just a visual version of the stall warning horn or aural alert and that almost guarantees they won't be integrated into the pilot's understanding of what the airplane is doing."

 

 

 

8875889_orig.jpg

 

This is also why they hold this optimal AOA and use power for GS (Hook to Deck angle) do you want to correct for this angle setting and power last second when landing?

 

.


Edited by David OC

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Yeah, I need a refill on my popcorn......

Steve (Slick)

 

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What flaws are you talking about?

 

It’s incapable of compensating for DA, weight, altitude, static port placement issues. There’s a reason it’s an ‘indicated’ airspeed, not a true or calibrated airspeed.

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Also neofightr's post, he list many aircraft, they all use this technique and he explains why it was much harder in these older aircraft.

 

There are many other IRL pilots here on the forum also bbrz, don't you think they would say something if this technique shouldn't be flow this way on jets or turbo props? and have a good detail reason as to why to not use the backside technique.

Sigh. NO, it's not about the different techniques and I don't disagree with any of the various techniques!

 

You still don't understand what I'm talking about, the basics of aircraft control and the effect of wind and turbulence.

Otherwise you wouldn't compare moving within an airmass to riding on top of a water surface and you would know the difference between 'fighting' and 'controlling' an aircraft.

 

You even quote neofightrs post without actually reading and/or understanding it. He wrote: The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA.

 

Do you understand the above sentence? Nowhere does it say, don't use the stick for AoA/pitch control.

 

The F/A-18 apparently has a very capable and advanced FBW system where it isn't necessary to control the AoA/pitch with the stick, but this doesn't apply to non-FBW aircraft and most likely not to every other FBW equipped aicraft.

 

You are constantly claiming that the 'look ma no hands' (on the stick) is the correct way to fly the A-10 and I'm telling you again that this isn't the case and that this method definitely doesn't work in gusty weather.

 

It's not about the different techniques, only about your wrong impression that you don't need to actively have to control the AoA/pitch attitude in most aircraft.

 

As plaiskool mentioned, if you don't actively control AoA/pitch you will enter a phugoid and that's nothing you want.


Edited by bbrz

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Not even going to answer that comment, I can see your A Little Embarrassed here, your the one arguing with the pro's, because you know better it seems right.

 

I will leave you to keep arguing with the navy pilots and engineers since page 21 because you know your stuff LOL.;)

 

The water in my post was representing the AIR, fluid dynamics, pushing the sea plane skids up the "back side" of the water "before getting up on it's skids", a metaphor etc. Re read my post, you missed read that too.:(

 

 

If u are trimmed correctly when adding power, the nose will raise by itself and there is no reason or need to pull on the stick.

i/e Stick/trim for AoA and throttle for glideslope.

 

That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

 

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

 

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

 

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.

 

That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.

Edited by David OC

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Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

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