Black Shark 3?

I think for the purposes of this discussion in this context it doesn't matter if it was a "production" run.

Obviously it's great to know and understand the history of the Shark. It quickly became one of my favorite combat aircraft of all time and I love the history.

But... As relating to whether the KA-50ED will be a faithful re-creation of what the KA-50 would have become I feel like the "prototype" discussion is similar to trying to imply that the F/A-18A is a "prototype" of the F/A-18C...

Not only is it not... but it also doesn't really matter.

If the U.S. had suffered the same financial issues as RU then maybe we'd be having this discussion about the 18C vs. the 18A? Maybe...

Either way though... We know that given enough money, military weapons tend to get better and better. I personally believe that the KA-50 was on track to become something very much like the KA-50ED, then the KA-52.

"Prototype" or not.

But do we have actual confirmation that the new DCS ka-50 will have equipment that we are fairly certain it has never been equipped with in reality, including those few still in active service today?

Because the real debate is whether or not ED is including "fictitious" aircraft in DCS world.

In my opinion as long as there has been at least one aircraft with the same equipment in active military service at some point in time it is legitimate. If there was never a single one in service with that equipment it technically shouldn't be in DCS.

I wouldn't be super critical of stretching that a bit, but adding a third hardpoint to each side of the Hokum would be be going too far IMO.

Well, and there you again have the very stretched opinion on either side of what exactly a "production run" is. Personally, I don't think it ever left prototype mode, and a few were punched out only because of contract obligations. Ka-52 was the final product, IMO.

So, to me, if the Ka-52 has it, then at some point, some prototype Ka-50 probably had it.

But really, it's a moot point, as someone above said. Neither side is going to agree with the other. :) And others are somewhere in between.

Chizh has pretty much said this is going to be "their" version of the Ka-50, hence the ED. And I doubt if this reasoning will ever be applied to any other module, unless it falls in a very gray area as well.

Which is why I'm comfortable asking for FLIR, because we KNOW it was on at least one of the prototypes. Just your standard Gen III FLIR. Probably RWR as well. Third pylon? Most likely. Radar? Well, that's probably stretching it. Though it is on the Ka-52.

And of course, this is not only because some of us want a Russian helicopter that can actually compete with all the others (especially because of the difficulties of being single pilot), you could also say it's to balance out the sides more evenly.

Don't even start with the "balance the sides out evenly" That is what scenario and server ops are for.

Lol, personally, I'm beginning to think you jet jockeys are just TERRIFIED of a capable attack chopper. :lol:

You can always ban it on your servers if it bothers you so. But remember, 90% of us fly offline.

As for FLIR, it's 2019, for God's Sake! I could buy a hand held FLIR and some duct tape online, and tape the stupid thing to the day camera if I had to.

At least here in America, ANYBODY can buy Gen III / IV FLIR. It's not a state secret.

And don't make me lean out the door with that Igla. I will!

x

But do we have actual confirmation that the new DCS ka-50 will have equipment that we are fairly certain it has never been equipped with in reality, including those few still in active service today?

 

Because the real debate is whether or not ED is including "fictitious" aircraft in DCS world.

 

In my opinion as long as there has been at least one aircraft with the same equipment in active military service at some point in time it is legitimate. If there was never a single one in service with that equipment it technically shouldn't be in DCS.

 

I wouldn't be super critical of stretching that a bit, but adding a third hardpoint to each side of the Hokum would be be going too far IMO.

See that's the point of lot's of the posts here.

The Official word from ED is that a 6 pylon version of the Ka-50 never existed, and that no Ka-50 was ever capable of launching Igla missiles.

Chizh says the aircraft is imaginary, but that they wanted to do it so they are.

That's their right.

What some of us object to is the tortured logic used to try to claim that modelling an imaginary aircraft is somehow no less realistic than the modelling of an actual aircraft (as in another thread where it was suggested that it would be more realistic to add a FLIR turret to the Ka-50 than to turn the contrast up on the display & use the NV system).

My understanding was the Ka-50 was designed during the 80s as a dedicated high tech anti-tank unit for the battlefields of Europe and the NATO.... ummm... blue tide???

This one ?

finch said:

anyway, what are these?

 

 

marked sensors L136 Mak-UFM is missile approach warning system it will detect missile by its rocket engine coz it's hot and after burnout it will see hot nose of the missile coz of friction .., two bulbs under belly are DIRCM (PRESIDENT-S) Directional Infra Red Counter Mesure and yes i saw then on real photos

Hmm, I thought these were on Ka-50sh. Just looked at photos and they aren't. So, obviously, it is on a prototype beyond that. And on Ka-52, of course.

It's the sensors for the MLWS that was really fitted to 2 real aircraft.

I don't at all mind seeing the Ka-50 in DCS with the equipment that the night variant (that never went into production) had. I'm not crazy about adding anything that we have no reason to believe was ever on any Ka-50, but within reason I won't complain.

Edit: Actually because I'd rather fly single seat aircraft unless flying with another real person multi-crew (for immersion's sake mostly) I've just had a change of heart. I'd be fine with bringing the Ka-50 up to basically Ka-52 spec.

As for saying the Ka-50 was never more than a prototype; that is trying to change historical facts, and that is something I will strongly and vocally object to. Do not try to justify the decision to create this fictitious updated Ka-50 by purporting a fictitious version of history.

I'm ok with ED saying "We basically want to bring the Ka-52 to DCS but we're going to leave it single seat (Ka-50 variant) because it will lend itself better to DCS gameplay and will require much less development time and effort than building the Ka-52."

I don't think Ka-52 was in any plans back then (some earlier post mentions a completely different helicopter intended for that role - the Ka-60 which I guess was never developed in that form).

KA-50 was meant to replace all Mi-24 helicopters, and KA-52 to be the group leader where the flight commander sit and designated the targets for the KA-50 pilots.

So it was meant to be a 3x KA-50 and 1x KA-52, where the KA-52 had as well the radar for ground and air search, while the KA-50's were the "drones".

The Ka-50 was eventually authorized for operational service in the Russian Army (mid-90's), but luckily they didn't have money to produce it. I say luckily, because by that time it was obvious that a more sophisticated and a night-capable version was needed and testing of the Ka-50N showed that two-man crew was preferable for night ops, so Kamov decided to develop the Ka-52 on its own.

The trials for operational service were done in the second chechen war, early 2001. That was first time the KA-50 was put on the field in a order of 4x KA-50 and 2x KA-29, that was meant to be so that KA-29 was the group leader and designated the targets and KA-50 performed the recon and attacks. The KA-50 and KA-29 all received just before shipping to chechen the ABRIS system, it was very much just installed there for that purpose.

The Kamov paid the 2x KA-50, but didn't have funds to pay the rest two KA-50's, hoping that the success of the KA-50 in Chechen will confirm the deal and receive extra funding to deliver the rest of the two KA-50. But that didn't happen, three KA-50 were delivered, IIRC it was #18 and #26 that went there, and later #25 was delivered there too after upgrading it to the ABRIS etc.

After the war, KA-50 project got feedback from the pilots and how to improve it. There were requests for things like:

1) Reorder the avionics, move the ABRIS etc.

2) Self-defence suite, President-S to be installed.

3) FLIR for low light and night flights.

The Department of Defence ordered KA-50 tests in 2003 (IIRC), to test the improved KA-50 based the feedback from the chechen war pilots and engineers.

After the tests in 2005 the new standard for serial production as planned, Minister of Defence made order to start production of the KA-50 to the new upgraded serial production standard.

But funding was cancelled. The project was in the ice.

Few years later the bad experiences with Mi-28 forced the DoD to start production of the KA-50, build the flight simulators for it and speed up the KA-52 project. Again the project as halted and later the KA-52 was found to be worth to sell as you had export markets for it as export clients required a attack helicopter that has two pilots, so KA-50 was impossible to be exported. And so on KA-50 seems to be put on ice, couple versions upgraded to serial production standard (class cockpits, FLIR, self-defence suit etc etc) and rest is production of the KA-52.

In 1997 the glass cockpit version of the KA-50 was shown in air show as potential offer for export customers. There are even videos and photo of the upgraded KA-50 with the upgraded glass cockpit systems in the factory and in the outside, from 2008 or so.

IIRC, in late 90's the Russian Army chose the Mi-28N for the gunship role, but later on the Ka-52 was chosen by the special forces as their preferred support helicopter.

That was past 2005 or so when the Mi-28 was chosen, only to suffer from not so great performance in the mountains that KA-50 proved to be possible with a co-axial design, reaching even a 60 meter per second vertical speed capability at the altitude, something unheard for flight performance from helicopters on mountains.

The KA-50 #25 we have in DCS, is one of the KA-50 that went to chechen war and is in the configuration after the war and before the trials. Since then it has been modified and altered and doesn't likely anymore exist anymore at all in the shape that it is now in DCS but is more modern or just different.

Was the KA-50 that we have in DCS a prototype? No, it was the testing version for BUG/BAG (IIRC). The prototyping phase was already past but it was not in serial production but was designated as such. Since the war, and testing phase, the serial production standard was upgraded to include all the feedback and flaws, so it as like "KA-50M" that as to come out from it, what we have never seen in DCS and don't see. We do not come to see the one with glass cockpit, FLIR etc. That is likely the KA-50 #18 or #23.

marked sensors are Laser Warning System, L140 i think .., two bulbs under belly are DIRCM (PRESIDENT-S) Directional Infra Red Counter Mesure :) and yes i saw then on real photos :)

The L140 laser sensors are small bulbs, those that are in the circled are IR/UV cameras that has detection range of up to 200 km and are capable to detect the missile direction and the range and likely measure the distance as well. That to separate false flags from the real threats and execute the jamming and flaring at the optimal distance from the helicopter.

Meaning, the system will be able to detect a missile launch from very long distances, or detect even a cannon firing. It doesn't care is the missile IR missile or is it radar guided, it will detect it and track it.

After detecting the launch, the system will calculate the approximate distance and the direction and speed of the missile, and so on separate it as well from the cannon firing.

And if the missile is approaching the helicopter, it will execute self-defence program when the missile reaches a optimal range from the helicopter.

This as well means that the system doesn't start jamming or flaring when a friendly helicopter near you will launch a missile, or it doesn't do that when a MBT below you will fire its cannon. It doesn't do that when a friendly near by SAM system launch missile in the air 10 kilometers from you unless that missile is flying toward you. It doesn't neither react to missiles that fighters above you are launching, unless the missile is flying toward you.

It will warn you, alarm you and react to radar guided missiles, only difference is that it can't flare it off or jam it.

There are some reports and procedure documents from manufacturer that the President-S package includes the RF capability, meaning it could be capable to perform CM against a radar guided missile as well. But that is likely part of the package that is for KA-52 with the RWR antennas to detect that kind threats as well and use chaff etc. As there are different President-S suites to Mi-8, KA-50, KA-29, Mi-28 and KA-52.

Great posts Fri13, thank you for taking the time to pass on this information.

I will leave a nice photo of one of the updated Ka-50's.

Yes but the president-s we gonna get is not the same or as good the current one of the Ka-52 one. Ka-50 improved version probably will be an early version of the President-s so let’s not hype too much about what you read about The latest version of the president-s

Great posts Fri13, thank you for taking the time to pass on this information.

 

I will leave a nice photo of one of the updated Ka-50's.

Here is a one updated KA-50 from 2008 (AFAIK):

There was one as well from 1997, likely one of the Sh variants or just cockpit mockup as it was far more futuristic than those.

That is likely the upgraded serial production standard that was made after DCS: BS was released.

Yes but the president-s we gonna get is not the same or as good the current one of the Ka-52 one. Ka-50 improved version probably will be an early version of the President-s so let’s not hype too much about what you read about The latest version of the president-s

It is not "inferior" or "lower grade", it is just a different version that doesn't have some features.

There is no one President-S system, but few different computers that are for different aircrafts. Otherwise same sensors, same capabilities but some are different like likely no RWR on the KA-50 variant.

I'm sorry, can I have a quick brief, so that I can avoid 72 pages? Just one question: will the BS3 be a real black shark version (be it a newer one, a prototype built in only one unit, or whatever) or a fictional black shark with systems borrowed from the Ka-52? It would be the first time ED develops something fictional, and I won't be happy with that choice.

I'm sorry, can I have a quick brief, so that I can avoid 72 pages? Just one question: will the BS3 be a real black shark version (be it a newer one, a prototype built in only one unit, or whatever) or a fictional black shark with systems borrowed from the Ka-52? It would be the first time ED develops something fictional, and I won't be happy with that choice.

Is real just that keep as prototypes like the one we have. They did keep testing equipments to become Ka-52 serie, so is real.

I'm sorry, can I have a quick brief, so that I can avoid 72 pages? Just one question: will the BS3 be a real black shark version (be it a newer one, a prototype built in only one unit, or whatever) or a fictional black shark with systems borrowed from the Ka-52? It would be the first time ED develops something fictional, and I won't be happy with that choice.

As I understand it:

It will be product improved prototype version post chechen war based on pilot input. Ours is currently the pre war protoype.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, they kept experimenting until the whole thing turned into the Ka-52. So, if it's on the Ka-52...

You can see the same type glass cockpit on the Ka-52, on the Ka-50 in the pic Fri13 posted. It looks like it's pretty much a single seat Ka-52, probably minus radar.

And the Ka-52 sports a third pylon, so I'm sure the modern Ka-50 would as well.

Except we are fairly sure no ka-50 has ever had a third pylon added, so at that point we can say with some confidence that if ED adds a third pylon it is ka50 that never existed.

From what I've been told ED has stated that the new Ka-50 will be fictional, but realistic in that it is what they believe the Ka-50 would have become if development continued in full force.

I felt the same way initially, that this shouldn't be done. Now I realize that I'd rather have a modernized shark that never actually happened than an alligator with a second seat occupied by AI.

AFAIK the old version will be getting fully updated to modern DCS standards as well, and it had better! That's the one I intend to spend a huge amount of my time in, I like flying older aircraft a lot more than the modern stuff.

As I understand it:

 

It will be product improved prototype version post chechen war based on pilot input. Ours is currently the pre war protoype.

Ours is the war model, after the war the shark pilots etc have their feedback and then trials were done. After those the shark got a upgraded standard for production. That never happened, even when it was ordered to be made. They only got simulator out for training and few units left in factory.

Now what we get is not even those upgraded glass cockpit, FLIR, A-A weapons, self defense suite etc. It is a more like a version that existed once in the trials before upgraded standard.

We need wait. Probably the most expecting features will be the igla missiles. Why not pictures show about third pylons, because there are not such a third pylon. The igla probably will be on internal pylons or external. OK I never have seen a igla set on internal, so must be external most probably. External we often set Vikhr missiles...

as you see in pictures, they show Vikhr rack with two empty slots. That may be because on those slots can be set the iglas.

Except we are fairly sure no ka-50 has ever had a third pylon added, so at that point we can say with some confidence that if ED adds a third pylon it is ka50 that never existed.

 

While we do not have a single photo of something, it doesn't mean it never existed. We do not know means we do not know.

What is known is that late 90's Kamov made one complete KA-50-2 for export sales because potential customers wanted two pilots.

And that is earliest model of KA-50 having the three stations.

Now, the first KA-52 models didn't have than two as well, not the three. Just two.

Until they upgraded KA-52 to have the three.

Need to overlaid ED model and KA-52, the wings are identical otherwise than added third station just next to wingtip pod.

Same wing, extra wiring and extra station.

Now who would say that it is impossible to attach such wing to upgraded KA-50? Remove old one, attach new one and pull wires.

Now question is that where you connect those wires? The upgraded KA-50 is shown in photos and video to have a glass cockpit like KA-52...

Why would Kamov want to keep producing a two separate wings of they can have one wing for both?

Why to have different panels and screens, of they can share them?

The A-10 was designed so that engines and wings etc can be swapped from left to right. Why? Because in the war you need parts, you must cannibalize one to get three flying.

Similar thing here would be logical, make KA-50 and KA-52 share as much parts as possible so on the war where you have 3x KA-50 and 1x KA-52 in a group, you can share parts in emergency to keep group flying.

And for ED to develope standard KA-50 (class cockpit), they would need Kamov documents and as it shares parts and systems with KA-52 that is in operational stays... No-Go!