GBU-38

Hello every one !

Now the gbu-38 bombs have very low accuracy ... Should this be so? When dynamic launch zones were introduced, they became accurate, but after several patches it became again an inaccurate and almost useless weapon ...

i believe this is a recorded bug and one of those that are being looked at to fix. lots going on.

I hope, but I haven’t seen it anywhere before to talk about it as a mistake

IRL they aren't pickle barrel accuracy anyway. If everything goes well CEP is anywhere from 5-11m. And ~30m if used in GPS denied environments (INS only).

LGB's should be used when needing high precision as their CEP's are significantly smaller.

The main advantages of the GPS guided weapon is that it is launch and leave and that it can be used in environments that preclude the use of LGBs (read shitty weather).

IRL they aren't pickle barrel accuracy anyway. If everything goes well CEP is anywhere from 5-11m. And ~30m if used in GPS denied environments (INS only).

 

LGB's should be used when needing high precision as their CEP's are significantly smaller.

 

The main advantages of the GPS guided weapon is that it is launch and leave and that it can be used in environments that preclude the use of LGBs (read shitty weather).

Yeah, IRL aren't they used more against fixed structures? And less so against say, stationary vehicles.

It of course changes with the LJDAM which has the best of both worlds.

For me they are deadly accurate in PP mode.

Yeah, IRL aren't they used more against fixed structures? And less so against say, stationary vehicles.

 

It of course changes with the LJDAM which has the best of both worlds.

Correct. The era of JDAM's we have, weren't used for precision work since they weren't precise enough. But definitely good enough for a building. Also DCS doesn't model the inaccuracies of using TOO modes. You loose accuracy with those since the TGP's can't generate accurate coordinates from long distances for a variety of reasons.

And yes, follow on JDAM like weapons incorporated secondary terminal seekers.

Actually the AGM-154C that we have is mis/under-modeled as it should have a terminal IR seeker.

But it all goes back to the poor damage modeling we have in DCS that requires pickle barrel accuracy.

But it all goes back to the poor damage modeling we have in DCS that requires pickle barrel accuracy.

here I agree 100%!!!!!!! )))))

IRL they aren't pickle barrel accuracy anyway. If everything goes well CEP is anywhere from 5-11m. And ~30m if used in GPS denied environments (INS only).

 

LGB's should be used when needing high precision as their CEP's are significantly smaller.

 

The main advantages of the GPS guided weapon is that it is launch and leave and that it can be used in environments that preclude the use of LGBs (read shitty weather).

Not really an accurate picture of JDAM accuracy...

The JDAM 13m horizontal CEP includes an allowance for 7.2m of Target Location Error (TLE). JDAM guidance accuracy/INS-error account for the remainder. The weapons are really, really accurate, especially if you have high-quality coordinates. DCS at present doesn't include coordinate generation errors from A/C targeting pods, so we should be seeing JDAM inaccuracies on the lower end of the spectrum.

Modern GPS weapons are used for a variety of reasons beyond the "launch and leave" capability. The ability to determine a wide array of terminal conditions including impact velocity, angle and azimuth. This makes it the weapon of choice where the targeteers need specific effects on a target. Things like cave entrances, targets with possible overhead obstructions, etc. can't be reliably targeted with an LGB. And target penetration for hard targets is generally iffy with a PW-II class weapon.

I'd love to read a more detailed explanation here, because I find GBU-38's extremely accurate (or at least as accurate as I need to destroy most armoured vehicles, I did a 4 gbu vs 4 apc single pass just two hours ago, all targets destroyed, all releases were "in range").

Maybe our definitions of accuracy differ from one another, or perhaps our technique of designating a target is different?

If I drop from 30,000+ft (typical for me) and be sure my tpod designator is on the target when I'm "in zone", it's just about a sure thing for me.

My accuracy isn't quite so good if I'm going for an "in range" drop, but I've always put that down to targeting errors from longer range.

Also, I always aim for under the vehicle, as if it isn't there, basically I aim just inside a wheel, or a track, rather then the top of the vehicle, and I don't use area or point track, just ground stabilized.

I will say though, I have extreme difficulty from nearly any range if my target is on a mountain side or some other very steep ground, at that point I's swap gbu-38's for mavs or something.

Like I said, I'd love for you to give me a bit more detail in what you're doing, maybe the problem could be in technique.

Also, I always aim for under the vehicle, as if it isn't there, basically I aim just inside a wheel, or a track, rather then the top of the vehicle, and I don't use area or point track, just ground stabilized.

I think this technique is the key to achieve maximum accuracy. It should be about parallax/projections and coordinates retrieval. TOO mode is easy to employ keeping that in mind

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Not really an accurate picture of JDAM accuracy...

 

The JDAM 13m horizontal CEP includes an allowance for 7.2m of Target Location Error (TLE). JDAM guidance accuracy/INS-error account for the remainder. The weapons are really, really accurate, especially if you have high-quality coordinates. DCS at present doesn't include coordinate generation errors from A/C targeting pods, so we should be seeing JDAM inaccuracies on the lower end of the spectrum.

 

Modern GPS weapons are used for a variety of reasons beyond the "launch and leave" capability. The ability to determine a wide array of terminal conditions including impact velocity, angle and azimuth. This makes it the weapon of choice where the targeteers need specific effects on a target. Things like cave entrances, targets with possible overhead obstructions, etc. can't be reliably targeted with an LGB. And target penetration for hard targets is generally iffy with a PW-II class weapon.

That's a big part of the problem in DCS. Because I'd say 90% of players use TOO vs PP. Or they use TOO to generate PP coordinates.

Bottom line IRL there are VERY GOOD reasons that pilots use JTAC coordinates for CAS, or use very good PP coordinates for actual strike roles. And not TOO.

The other thing I Doubt ED models is the effects of GPS constellation configurations on actual GPS accuracy. Again, there are very good reasons why specific missions are conducted at specific times :).

Q:

And really if GPS guided weps were so good in the first place, why does the second generation of GPS guided weps either include some sort of terminal seeker, or use "enhanced GPS" coordinate generation strategies?

A:

Cuz first generation GPS weapons weren't all that good to begin with. Certainly not the pickle barrel BS we see in DCS.

I'd love to read a more detailed explanation here, because I find GBU-38's extremely accurate (or at least as accurate as I need to destroy most armoured vehicles, I did a 4 gbu vs 4 apc single pass just two hours ago, all targets destroyed, all releases were "in range").

 

That's because DCS JDAM's are way too accurate vs IRL.

But then again, I find most weapons modeling in DCS to be arcade level. Especially things like actual accuracy and damage effects.

You say "DCS JDAM's are way too accurate", others say JDAM's are a "almost useless weapon".

I can't help that think the truth lays in between.

That's a big part of the problem in DCS. Because I'd say 90% of players use TOO vs PP. Or they use TOO to generate PP coordinates.

 

Bottom line IRL there are VERY GOOD reasons that pilots use JTAC coordinates for CAS, or use very good PP coordinates for actual strike roles. And not TOO.

 

The other thing I Doubt ED models is the effects of GPS constellation configurations on actual GPS accuracy. Again, there are very good reasons why specific missions are conducted at specific times :).

 

Q:

And really if GPS guided weps were so good in the first place, why does the second generation of GPS guided weps either include some sort of terminal seeker, or use "enhanced GPS" coordinate generation strategies?

 

A:

Cuz first generation GPS weapons weren't all that good to begin with. Certainly not the pickle barrel BS we see in DCS.

A couple of things......

1) Self coordinate generation depends on the system. Modern jets are perfectly capable of self-generating Cat I/II coords if they have the right equipment - such as Sniper Pod or SAR.

2) New Gen GPS weapons such as GBU-54 (laser JDAM and such) have that capability more for engaging moving and Dynamic targets more so than to increase the GPS only accuracy. The DoD was more than happy with with existing JDAM accuracy, but they needed the additional capability that the laser added to increase the range of targets they could engage.

3) as in almost everything..... it's GIGO. If you give GPS weapons average to poor coordinates, you will get average to poor accuracy.

That's because DCS JDAM's are way too accurate vs IRL.

 

But then again, I find most weapons modeling in DCS to be arcade level. Especially things like actual accuracy and damage effects.

Again, I haven't seen that. I was just playing around with doing a bunch of GBU-12 attacks and it was not a 100% perfect weapon. Ive you had too much spot movement, it would miss. If you had a stable laser - it would most likely hit. I had several near misses (right next to it) with the GBU-12 against a T-72 and it caused 0% damage as you would expect.

DCS is not perfect, but I haven't seen it to be too far out of the realm of what IRL is like.

Notso nailed it WRT the inclusion of additional terminal seekers. The push for newer weapon systems is in flexibility and multiple terminal options, not necessarily improving accuracy.

And there is additional challenges IRL in terms of generating quality coordinates. It's not as simple as "use this sensor" as there may be various restrictions including range, squint and graze.

I honestly think the "arcade" accuracy of DCS is probably producing realistic results, which is that someone in mission planning did the work and you can accurately employ the weapon. You could include things involving the constellation (flex power, etc.) but that's so far beyond scope it really shouldn't be included.

GBU-12's aren't JDAM's.

GBU-12's aren't JDAM's.

In terms of what? Accuracy or weapon effects? Same bomb body, just different guidance. There are some that combine both (I.E. EGBU-24).

You also have to take into account...’most’ everyone here is making a ‘guess’ as the real life weapons accuracy/effects data is classified info. I’ve got plenty of old pictures from Kuwait of the bunkers that were hit in DS, still intact and still used to this day without rebuilding them, and many were hit with multiple 2000 pounders. If you were to walk inside them, many don’t look like they were ever blown up aside from the holes in the ceiling. Actual wartime armored/fortified assets are much different than the dirt structures we’ve been hitting for 20 years. Unfortunately, you are talking about a lot of extra modeling to simulate the effects on both. ED has shown models of different fuzing being modeled, we can only hope that weaponeering becomes part of the mix at some point in the future.

That's a big part of the problem in DCS. Because I'd say 90% of players use TOO vs PP. Or they use TOO to generate PP coordinates.

 

Bottom line IRL there are VERY GOOD reasons that pilots use JTAC coordinates for CAS, or use very good PP coordinates for actual strike roles. And not TOO.

 

The other thing I Doubt ED models is the effects of GPS constellation configurations on actual GPS accuracy. Again, there are very good reasons why specific missions are conducted at specific times :).

 

Q:

And really if GPS guided weps were so good in the first place, why does the second generation of GPS guided weps either include some sort of terminal seeker, or use "enhanced GPS" coordinate generation strategies?

 

A:

Cuz first generation GPS weapons weren't all that good to begin with. Certainly not the pickle barrel BS we see in DCS.

if I understand you correctly, do I need to rewrite the coordinates from the TOO to PP and my bombs will become accurate ??)

if I understand you correctly, do I need to rewrite the coordinates from the TOO to PP and my bombs will become accurate ??)

Its not about whether its in TOO or PP mode, the important thing is whether the coordinates are absolute (from a JTAC or satellite photos), or relative (from a tpod designation). Relative Coordinates are less reliable than absolute.

In terms of what? Accuracy or weapon effects? Same bomb body, just different guidance. There are some that combine both (I.E. EGBU-24).

 

You also have to take into account...’most’ everyone here is making a ‘guess’ as the real life weapons accuracy/effects data is classified info. I’ve got plenty of old pictures from Kuwait of the bunkers that were hit in DS, still intact and still used to this day without rebuilding them, and many were hit with multiple 2000 pounders. If you were to walk inside them, many don’t look like they were ever blown up aside from the holes in the ceiling. Actual wartime armored/fortified assets are much different than the dirt structures we’ve been hitting for 20 years. Unfortunately, you are talking about a lot of extra modeling to simulate the effects on both. ED has shown models of different fuzing being modeled, we can only hope that weaponeering becomes part of the mix at some point in the future.

In terms of JDAM's and GBU-12's are entirely different weapons.

JDAM stands for Joint Direct Attack Munition, and they are GBU-31, GBU-32, GBU-35, GBU-38, GBU-54.

GBU-12's are part of the Paveway family.

They are made by different manufacturers.

Its not about whether its in TOO or PP mode, the important thing is whether the coordinates are absolute (from a JTAC or satellite photos), or relative (from a tpod designation). Relative Coordinates are less reliable than absolute.

COORDINATES from the card f10, as I understand it, absolute? that is, if I introduce them my bombs will be accurate right?

In terms of JDAM's and GBU-12's are entirely different weapons.

 

JDAM stands for Joint Direct Attack Munition, and they are GBU-31, GBU-32, GBU-35, GBU-38, GBU-54.

 

GBU-12's are part of the Paveway family.

 

They are made by different manufacturers.

I know exactly what they are. I’ve spent 21 years in the military. The bomb itself is the same. You’re still not getting it.

Translation to make it a bit easier to understand:

The GBU-38 and GBU-12 have different guidance packages, but the part of the weapon that goes boom is the same Mk. 82 500 pounder. It's up to the squadron gunners to add the appropriate parts to transform it into either a GBU-38 or GBU-12.

That about sum it up, Rainmaker?