SD-10 NERF?

I still have never heard of an F-16 or other modern fighter that isn’t F-14 that can track in the notch with radar. Just becuase the F-14 is older, I don’t think that necessarily means something later has all the same features.

Well I know that most modern jets when in look up will reduce the the size of the doppler gate. In one of the F16 manuals I have I think it said it can remove almost all of the doppler filters when in look up. I know the MIG29 is similar in look down its ~113kts for the blind zone, in look up at long range its ~80kts, and at close range (20-15km) to less than 27 if in look up and the target is close. Which actually makes me wonder does the new radar model take into account different notch sizes if in look up or look down @chizh?
Edited May 28, 2020 by nighthawk2174

People are asking to have commonly known behavior of radar guided missiles finally represented instead of the broken mechanics we have currently. This would significantly help improve the realism of all missiles.

 

Not sure what "downsides" you meant by flying near ground, most aspects are already represented or already worse than they should be. Flying not in the notch generally results in the clutter being ignored unless you're flying under the trees, and if you're anywhere near a good notch all radar guided platforms will miss. The main issue with notch reliability is actually the network desync..

 

The problem is not that the missile we have is not the end all be all missile.

 

The problem is that all missiles suffer from absurd behavior that is very far from any realism. Implementing appropriate radar techniques would solve many of these problems. The exact implementation on a particular missile is most likely not even available privately, but a generic approximation of i.e. range gating would bring much more realism than not having it at all.

 

Youre acting as if there are only negatives. There is also ground clutter (windmills, cars, moving boats, birds etc.) that the missile can pick up. In DCS it will not, you need to drop chaff. Chaff will also only spoof the missile from 8 miles. IRL according to ED radars should drop lock due to chaff (even outside the notch), allowing you to notch missiles even earlier and more reliably at times. A lot of chaff in the air should also desensitize missiles, so it should perhabs be even easier to notch in that spot.

 

Also, actives in DCS dont benefit from radar support. By your standpoint this means that after fixed, they should be as good and require as precise notching/chaffing (or a notch at all) on their own, and then be near undefeatable when supported by an STT lock. The truth is obviously that hust like with the Semi-actives (according to chizh), EDs modelling is an average and they took supporting radar into account. So the real amraam/finished amraam in a few months will be weaker, easier to chaff on its own, but harder to notch/chaff with a radar also guiding it in SARH. Although as said before, radars go for chaff too. Ones like F-14B/MiG-29A probably easier than our mid-2000s F-18s/JF-17.

I need to write things down, but I have a couple of ideas how to build an Environment-SNR-based radar logic that takes chaff / statistically modelled birds / ground, whatnot into account.

 

Although as said before, radars go for chaff too. Ones like F-14B/MiG-29A probably easier than our mid-2000s F-18s/JF-17.

 

That matches with what I heard from IRL pilots as well. You basically try to keep the radar guessing and make it hard to aquire / reaquire. Basically don't wait until you're fired upon.

Ehh i'm not so sure about the effectiveness of chaff against modern PD radars, especially the 7M/MH, 120B, and C5.

Well I know that most modern jets when in look up will reduce the the size of the doppler gate. In one of the F16 manuals I have I think it said it can remove almost all of the doppler filters when in look up. I know the MIG29 is similar in look down its ~113kts for the blind zone, in look up at long range its ~80kts, and at close range (20-15km) to less than 27 if in look up and the target is close. Which actually makes me wonder does the new radar model take into account different notch sizes if in look up or look down @chizh?

 

Sure of course, but I think that’s very different then what the F-14 can do in Pulse mode with the MLC removed, that there is no non-PD aspect of RWS in later planes, that’s all I meant.

Fair enough pulse is a very different beast which the F15 also has as well

You got me there, shows how great it would be in full fidelity

 

Also If it’s okay I’m going to post the last SD-10 test you did, I don’t think many people got to see it becuase Imgur has issues

 

For reference here are the original tests from release, you can see how close Cd0 is to Chizhs post, both peak at around .9

Edited May 28, 2020 by AeriaGloria

Np thanks for the repost

we want simulation, that means that Phoenix's should be scary. It also means that the sd-10 is a substantially more modern missile than the 120 Charlie. so instead of breaking a good missile why not develop a more modern missile? make the 120D, fix the SD10. both sides are happy. this is just a cop-out bow to people that want something that DCS isnt, or at least something I hope DCS isn't

 

just bc somethings newer doesnt mean its better.

I know nothing of the SD10 IRL.. that said itt feels less than a sparrow ATM to be honest lol

THAT SAID... the logic 'its newer so should be better than an aim120" makes no sense.

 

My take is this

not knowing anything

but with commonsense.. its supposed to be BVR. why would the chinese or pakis make a missile that can only realistically be fired at low or medium altitudes to ensure a kill at less than 15 miles?

Seriously, Id take AIM 7 MHs over them if I could realistically.

besides their reliability when in range which feels fair, though lousy ( It took me 6 missiles for 2 mig 21s monday) (2 sd 10s for a f18 this am BUT it was at 14, then 10 miles!)

Something seems really off when the BVR missile almost cannot be fired BVR and is almost impossible to engage any enemy armed with anything more than sidewinders.

If its true fine but I dont believe this is right. I think it should at least be hitting 20 -25 miles. FFS the russians were making R27ERS when??? You telling me the chinese developed and made these?? again I know new doesnt hafta be better, but theyre AWFUL rn

Edited June 27, 2020 by sublime

No idea how you only get 10-15 miles. On AI I can get 37nm kills. And PVP farther away then 20nm. Yes down low your are not going to have a lot of range, every missile is like that. R-27ER AMRAAM or whatever

 

Take an AIM-7MH down low and you will see. SD-10 has 10kg more fuel then AIM-7, it’s almost 50kg lighter before the fuel burns out and 60kg lighter when the fuel is burned. It’s thinner wings and wings will give it less drag in all conditions. Yes Its performance down low is not as optimized as AMRAAM becuase it is not as aerodynamic, it’s optimized for mid to high altitudes. But down low it is still much longer reach then AIM-7,

 

I mean to get 10-15 miles are you on the deck? Not many missiles would be BVR at that level, by everything I’ve seen the range reduction at low altitude looks very realistic to me. 37nm is achieved by a Mach 1.2 launch at 30,000 feet, so below that or slower your range will always be decreasing becuase of thicker air, skinny missiles lose less down low and thick missiles lose more range becuase they have greater drag and frontal surface area. It’s just a matter of missile design, choosing what design to hit your design parameters at certain altitudes. The Luoyang engineers clearly optimized it for high or medium altitudes, and it’s still has much larger reach then a Sparrow in every condition. Down low you don’t usually need to go 20 miles, so it’s a reasonable compromise. Hell head on while on the deck I don’t think the AIM-120C will go much farther then 10-15 miles with enough energy to hit

Ok i can easily show you and ive been playing years.

If youre playing artificial essy scenarios yeah you can get brochure shots. Id love vid if ubhave it of u making 37 nm pvp shots or even 25 nm shots in dce

Best i can get is suicide from amraams/phoenixes by going aas fast as i can about 25k and centering the radar dot. Even then by the time the weapon irs in the wez youre well past when they fired on you. Its just not pit bulled. You got enuff chaff for about 3 bursts.

This again isnt an issue of git gud - i have a ton of witnesses to this and i dont know squat about the real weapon so Im not saying if its. Accurate or not. Im just saying its the worst bvr weapon IMO in game rn.

If you have vid Id LOVE to see it

To acknowledge that im wrong and learn how youre doing it. Because im literally geting 6 or 7 hrs a day in on just the f 14 or jf17 eirher mp or dce. Im not somw ace but i.m not a noob i can use both planes nearly every function and rhat includes rio on the f14

I just dont understand how youre getting those shots. Are you playing release or OB? I play release for dcs but online open beta. Frankly it took 6 missiles to down 2 mig 21s(ai) on line. And no its not i just suck - i fly the f14 and ill get 6/6 shots often etc

So either

A. Im doing something really wrong or not hitting some magic switch

B. Youre bsing

C. Yourr doing it but alwats under ideal circumstabcss

D. Or im wrong

Id be overjoyed if d is true. Believe mw if i can even get 50/50 SD10 shots at 25 nm Id be over the moon.

You have any evidence? And i dont mean that disrespectfully

On the deck usually i pop up.last minute to 4 or.5 k

I have dropped tanks. Almost always intercepts in this campaign as i replaced the su27 squad (well.p80 did at my behest. I shuda said which squad rhe su27 isnt good match) ok so i take off. 2 pl5s 4 sd 10s jammer on 2 fuel bags full. Full burner.

I do 2 types of approaches now

.approach 2 is gettign me 1 or 2 kills a mission death is near certainn always

Approach 1 was sensivle. Use terrain . Notcj them. Then strike. When id strikenid scream in top speed. Usually.im using full butner as its intercept anyways andnby the time im.in range i just droppped the 1100l tanks.

At 4 or 5 k at mach .9 or so i get a wez of 8 to.10.miles.

If i fly full burner approach 2. Again drop tanks but maybe 2 min this time before engagement (unless f14s are leading. Then everyone just dies) however its a dce campaign so you have usually sead escort and strike. Theyre jamming too.

So i go as fast as i can. Honestly idk what mach im at i cant recall i just know im arnd 350 knots indicated at 30k or 35k

If i get a missile warning ill start jinking really hard. I invariably lose 10k to 15k in height. Then wez is 10 to 15 miles almost always.

If the enemy doesnt fire first and im on full burner at 35k then MAYBE ill get "in range" on the hud (after they pass the green radar wez but ill add if you fire withodut the hud saying shoot it seems you have less rhan a 25% chance) - Ill get "in range at 25 to 30 nm and ""shoot" at 15.

If you dont believe me Ill record it. But seriously itd be far more useful if youre making these shots to show me what your doing cuz i need that

On the deck usually i pop up.last minute to 4 or.5 k

 

I have dropped tanks. Almost always intercepts in this campaign as i replaced the su27 squad (well.p80 did at my behest. I shuda said which squad rhe su27 isnt good match) ok so i take off. 2 pl5s 4 sd 10s jammer on 2 fuel bags full. Full burner.

 

I do 2 types of approaches now

 

.approach 2 is gettign me 1 or 2 kills a mission death is near certainn always

 

Approach 1 was sensivle. Use terrain . Notcj them. Then strike. When id strikenid scream in top speed. Usually.im using full butner as its intercept anyways andnby the time im.in range i just droppped the 1100l tanks.

 

At 4 or 5 k at mach .9 or so i get a wez of 8 to.10.miles.

 

If i fly full burner approach 2. Again drop tanks but maybe 2 min this time before engagement (unless f14s are leading. Then everyone just dies) however its a dce campaign so you have usually sead escort and strike. Theyre jamming too.

 

So i go as fast as i can. Honestly idk what mach im at i cant recall i just know im arnd 350 knots indicated at 30k or 35k

 

If i get a missile warning ill start jinking really hard. I invariably lose 10k to 15k in height. Then wez is 10 to 15 miles almost always.

 

If the enemy doesnt fire first and im on full burner at 35k then MAYBE ill get "in range" on the hud (after they pass the green radar wez but ill add if you fire withodut the hud saying shoot it seems you have less rhan a 25% chance) - Ill get "in range at 25 to 30 nm and ""shoot" at 15.

 

If you dont believe me Ill record it. But seriously itd be far more useful if youre making these shots to show me what your doing cuz i need that

 

Sublime, are you familiar with cranking, f-pole, a-pole, etc...?

 

I've been killed by sd10 too many tines too know that inside 20nn, its a monster, more if you are at 30k.

 

I usually play at blueflag, 104th, ddcs server, so its against good players, that is true.

 

If you want to get 25mn/30 mn shots i recommend the following rules of thumb

 

1-Use tws and keep the lock as much a you can

2-be over mach 1

3-loft the shot

4-crank, turn towards the target to loft a shot and crank again, better if you go descending cause you will get a amraam in the air probably

5-dont go in straight line at 30/40k for 40 mn cause you are screaming: i want to shoot you down, the most effective shots are those where your enemy thinks you are attacking another plane or going elsewhere, just to receive an rwr warning with 4 sec defensive time.

6- if you bandit is very high(more than 30k), you can shot way over the rmax and still get him, i've witnessed 40mn kills just because the range seemed so big that the bandit did not expect a shot and once the warning is on, you are too high too defend effectively.

 

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

Sublime, are you familiar with cranking, f-pole, a-pole, etc...?

 

I've been killed by sd10 too many tines too know that inside 20nn, its a monster, more if you are at 30k.

 

I usually play at blueflag, 104th, ddcs server, so its against good players, that is true.

 

If you want to get 25mn/30 mn shots i recommend the following rules of thumb

 

1-Use tws and keep the lock as much a you can

2-be over mach 1

3-loft the shot

4-crank, turn towards the target to loft a shot and crank again, better if you go descending cause you will get a amraam in the air probably

5-dont go in straight line at 30/40k for 40 mn cause you are screaming: i want to shoot you down, the most effective shots are those where your enemy thinks you are attacking another plane or going elsewhere, just to receive an rwr warning with 4 sec defensive time.

6- if you bandit is very high(more than 30k), you can shot way over the rmax and still get him, i've witnessed 40mn kills just because the range seemed so big that the bandit did not expect a shot and once the warning is on, you are too high too defend effectively.

 

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

 

Yes in familiar with all those terms.

If you mean by cranking firing a bunch of f3s so they maddog and bugging out and all that..

Im not new. Seirously do you want me.to record a track or spectate me online? Im not being fresh ill show you an example (but my experiences ARE release bc its dcs)

Ill try lofting more

But understabd the situation in this campaifb. Its tf74 but im the red for su27s replaced as jf17s. Im fighting old hornets and f14s. Its.. difficult. Itd be difficult with r77s.

Anyways tbh I still am not convinced flying NoE with (80s //90s vintage f14s f18s e2s) wouldnt let me sneak up on them. Nevermind that

Ill try lofting more. Im always going full burner almost entire mission because almost every mission is intercept.

Its madness i found to go feet wet except exceptional circumstances

I did bring some asms and ignored the intercept once. Think the fleet shot em down. Even 4 wouldnt be enuff unless i was lucky.

Ok so anyways look again usually.. i have all these contacts .. 15 or 20

I try to avoid f14s if the rwr knows its them and pick on f18s.

Anyways i burner entire time (4 sd 10 2 pl 5 jammer on fwd and back - BTW what does "missile bit" do and if i set one direction is the jamming stronger??)

I get to like 30. Yes the Wez Does expand.

*** what is unsaid im infferring here is you are saying if I wait until the HUD says in range or shoot im.gonna die?"

Because the rest? Lmao already done. Chaffs usually long gone before im in range to fire. Im usually maneuvering HARD. I can dodge a fleeets worth of missiles in my.tomcat as tge iranians. The prob is im SOOO CLOSE with the jeff i always get hit. And im maneuvering hard enuff to break a2g stuff.

And constantly ill add. Hard turns one way then another. Burne4 climb then roll on my back and do a split s then another. Etc but generally RUNNING twdss a sam site

No offense to anyone but im seeing a lot of advice - thank you - but im NOT seeing these shots irl or online.

Evidence with some proof its current..?

(So no im not new. I started with aces over europe. And su27 flanker the 1995 version and have flight simmed continously since. Im no erich hartmann but i know how to use the damn planes; I learn them in and out)

Sublime, are you familiar with cranking, f-pole, a-pole, etc...?

 

I've been killed by sd10 too many tines too know that inside 20nn, its a monster, more if you are at 30k.

 

I usually play at blueflag, 104th, ddcs server, so its against good players, that is true.

 

If you want to get 25mn/30 mn shots i recommend the following rules of thumb

 

1-Use tws and keep the lock as much a you can

2-be over mach 1

3-loft the shot

4-crank, turn towards the target to loft a shot and crank again, better if you go descending cause you will get a amraam in the air probably

5-dont go in straight line at 30/40k for 40 mn cause you are screaming: i want to shoot you down, the most effective shots are those where your enemy thinks you are attacking another plane or going elsewhere, just to receive an rwr warning with 4 sec defensive time.

6- if you bandit is very high(more than 30k), you can shot way over the rmax and still get him, i've witnessed 40mn kills just because the range seemed so big that the bandit did not expect a shot and once the warning is on, you are too high too defend effectively.

 

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

 

Gotta credit where its due. I tried getting to 40k and dropped tanks. Ab almost entire flight kutaisi to maube 50 miles off cosst.im still in flight idk how many i got but 2 for sure.

I dodged at least 7 missiles.. jeesus

But yes. At 40k.. youbdont need to loft but it helps

Btw i just want to sdd.. it does sork but.. the fact you have to go to 30 to 40k and mah 1 to make this weapon EVEN FEASIBLE AT ALL unless below 20-15nm you have to be going at near mach 1 and 35 to 40k.

Something seems rlly wrong.

That seems like early 60s sparrows