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For those who trim by tapping the trim button


PeaceSells

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For what it's worth, one thing I did notice a long time ago was that immediately after take-off and gaining some altitude (500 - 1000mAGL), if the Kamov is configured properly for a hover then your job just becomes a helluva lot easier, so much so that you can pretty much throw her around at will without resorting to trim at all.

 

Here's a quick vid I threw together illustrating playing silly buggers with no trim -

 

sgljSMPDvU0

 

Disclaimer: Yes yes yes, I busted the nose-wheel at the end - doorbell rang

 

I love that this thread re-occurs every so often :)

 

Again and again and again and again and then.........again :D


Edited by 159th_Viper

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I am intimately familiar with various models of the Mi-8/17, as well as several other types of helicopters and aircraft. None of those are the Ka-50. Everything I know about the Ka-50 is either public knowledge from somewhere else, data from similar systems (like the engines, as an example), or guessing/extrapolation based on knowledge and experience with other aircraft or systems. I have never sat in a Ka-50, worked on a Ka-50, nor do I have access to any official Ka-50 reference documentation. Anything I say with regard to how the Ka-50 works should be understood in that context.

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I am intimately familiar with various models of the Mi-8/17, as well as several other types of helicopters and aircraft. None of those are the Ka-50. Everything I know about the Ka-50 is either public knowledge from somewhere else, data from similar systems (like the engines, as an example), or guessing/extrapolation based on knowledge and experience with other aircraft or systems. I have never sat in a Ka-50, worked on a Ka-50, nor do I have access to any official Ka-50 reference documentation. Anything I say with regard to how the Ka-50 works should be understood in that context.

Thanks for clarifying.

Otter

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A16's insights into that particular engine are very interesting. I must parrot that I have no distinct knowledge of the system, only what can be and has been in contemporary designs. I stand by the observation that it is oddly rudimentary.

 

Given the DCS control scheme (doubly so with a spring joystick) modeled with no thought outside of the simulation it's clear that press and hold trim button is the superior technique. Objectivity is assured on this opinion as a tap has been my used and expoused technique to date!

 

Investigating technique further I thought a HOTAS-FD button would be just the thing but found out that new AP values aren't captured when FD is turned off which is a pain. I could program some complicated sequence that auto trim held whenever the stick was displaced or auto-trimmed on FD off but it is too much hassle.

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as I understand (please tell me if I understand something wrong):

 

1) upon pressing the trim button, autopilot stabilization gets turned off;

 

AP stabilization stays on, AP authority gets turned off. This is same as you would enable AP Flight Director -mode, that you can do just by holding the Trim button down.

 

2) without autopilot, your FWD input gets amplified, even though you're still holding the stick at the same place and even though it's during only a few milliseconds;

 

The AP channel doesn't amplify anything. It only "smoothens" your inputs and adds a 16% authority to keep channel (pitch, yaw, roll) in the commanded direction / position to route/heading.

 

There are three values:

 

AP channel Off = your input is exactly followed, if you do rapid waving on cyclic as input, then it is delivered as output to washplate.

AP channel On = your input is read and then outputted in "smoother" manner and the Auto-Pilot has 16% authority to correct inputs (controls or external forces) for commanded direction/settings.

AP channel Flight Director = Your Input is read and then outputted "smoothly" but there is no Auto-Pilot Authority.

 

3) upon releasing the trim button, the new amplified input gets saved and fixed by the flight control system, and autopilot gets re-engaged holding this new amplified input;

 

When you release the trim button your current flight parameters are stored to flight computer and autopilot system tries to hold aircraft flight parameters on it with 16% authority. If the external forces exceeds the 16% or pilot inputs exceed it, then Auto Pilot system can't correct past that inputs. The Collective Brake Handle (required to be squeezed to move collective up/down) as well works as trim button but only for Altitude channel. So in the hover or flight when you use collective to adjust your altitude, the handle release reprograms the current altitude in flight computer and AP tries to hold to it. (here again only 16% authority to change blades angle so if you are dropping too quickly in hover so that 16% authority can't increase blades angle of attack to get you in hover, you will drop down as 16% ain't enough).

 

The AP task is only to read the parameters for flight and then adjust the controls to maintain them.

You AP channels are just the settings you enable and you program the AP by pressing Trim button, Releasing a collective handle or adjusting Shkval targeting system settings or route/heading settings. If you example turn "Shkval Auto-Turn" On, then AP channel "Yaw" will have 16% authority to rotate helicopter to the Shkval targeting gate direction until it is in center of aircraft. If you switch "Route Following" on, then AP has again 16% authority to get helicopter on that based the values how it is suppose to fly there.

 

4) aircraft pitches down noticeably instead of holding the pitch you originally intended when you pressed the trim button.

 

The helicopter receives command: AP max 16% input + your input = output. That is challenging if changes are radical between trims as you as pilot don't know is the AP current authority 0-16% scale. You can avoid this by not doing quick trims, but holding trim longer so your input (releasing AP authority) gets smoothed and then when you release trim, it gets programmed and AP has again 16% authority from current position.

 

Now I'm able to work around that by moving the stick while I keep the trim button depressed, and releasing the button when the aircraft is pointing where I want. But as I read the forums I see that many people trim by simply tapping the trim button. Doesn't it bump your aircraft slightly out of position when you do that? How exactly do you trim by tapping without getting this effect?

 

Thanks for your input!

 

 

There are two ways to do the trimming, just like there is said about continually pressing in small adjustments, or then holding and releasing in new location.

Both are as valid but the holding is faster and preferred in the quick situations as you are not fighting against AP to do maneuvers. It is like in Su-27 or Su-25 to press "AP override" when you have a "level flight + altitude hold" enabled but you want to do a turn, so you just press and hold "AP override" and turn to new heading and then release it and AP will roll and pitch your aircraft to get back to level flight and keep altitude (that I don't remember is the altitude now the current one, or one before holding down the AP override).

 

The cyclic works with a magnetic break, so it will lock your cyclic in its position once the trimmer is released and AP channels are enabled. So moving it slightly is difficult as you are required to use force to move it against AP trying to keep it steady, and you have to override the 16% of the AP authority to actually change attitude.

That is why it is just easier to press'n'hold trim for maneuver as you are not fighting against AP and magnetic break isn't activated and you can move cyclic freely. And once your aircraft attitude is in your wanted position, you release the trim button.

 

This is example very easy to notice with a Force Feedback joysticks as you are moving stick against the FF motors. And once you press trim, the motors doesn't anymore fight against you and you can easily move the stick to wanted position. But because AP channels are enabled, your inputs are "smoothen" so you don't easily do a overcorrection and small adjustments are easier. Once you again release the trim button, FF stick gets locked to its current position and you can remove your hand from it to operate other aircraft function.

 

When you are doing constant small trimming pressing, it works fine as long you are doing very very tiny corrections like 1-2 degree angle changes in roll or pitch. And it works well when you just need to do periodic adjustments in longer time period, like following a coast line and doing tiny adjustments now and then. But if you are following a road or a rive, it is better press and hold as every movement you do are easily larger corrections than 1-2 degree.

 

Pressing multiple times is like trying to fly fighter jet for acrobatics maneuvers by using trim. You only fly fighter with trim when it is small changes. All larger changes you do by moving the stick itself.

 

So both methods has their purposes and needs.

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With any other chopper I can agree with the way we fly the chopper and how it reacts when compared with real life.

But the Kamov KA-50 allows an interpretation to its true intent. What ED left us is what the true machine promised.. it was only allowed to be designed and pushed into reality under strict guidelines.... the Kamov design was to better the AH-64. The Mil design was to equal the AH-64.

 

 

The KA-50 succeeded!

the M!-28 did not and still does not.

 

 

you are very lucky to have such a man/machine helicopter in a sim environment. Whilst we are not allowed the perfect KA-50 we have something that allows us to understand what it is to touch the heavens.

 

 

you should kill yourself over and over to understand true personality of the 6 bladed warrior.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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When you are doing constant small trimming pressing, it works fine as long you are doing very very tiny corrections like 1-2 degree angle changes in roll or pitch. And it works well when you just need to do periodic adjustments in longer time period, like following a coast line and doing tiny adjustments now and then. But if you are following a road or a rive, it is better press and hold as every movement you do are easily larger corrections than 1-2 degree.

 

I'm now doing smaller adjustments at a time when using the click method. The thing is the bump is proportional to the amount of force the AP is applying to the controls at the moment you click the trim, not to the amount you are applying when you click the trim, so many times clicking for small adjustments does yield a big bump. I read on another thread that you also have to trim constantly to avoid build up of the AP actuation, in order to avoid big bumps. In my experience that's true, but I didn't discipline myself to it that constantly yet. Maybe because it's counter-intuitive and, let's be honest, flying like that makes no sense. But if it's necessary, then be it.

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Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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It isn't necessary... Just hold the trim button when transitioning ;). Also... to reduce "bump"... let the aircraft settle into the controls before you trim either by tapping or releasing from held.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can I propose that the reason some of us speculate that the AP/Trim/Cyclic may be unrealistic is because we're not using it realistically? To my earlier post; once I started turning off the *AP heading channel* to make a *heading change* rather than *resetting trim* just to change a single axis, things started feeling perfectly normal and realistic. It took some getting used to, and it wasn't easy to wrap my head around it because I was so dependent on the trim reset, but once it clicked for me it then seemed like the only logical choice and it became clear to me that I was doing it wrong before. Holding trim reset to change heading now seems equally as silly to me as continuously holding the autohover button whenever I don't want to hover. Likewise, if I'm rapidly changing flight profile, such as when I'm terrain masking to get on target, I'll turn on flight director.. or more often just leave the HeadingAP and AltAP channels off. With the channels bound to my HOTAS it feels natural and I've become a much better Blackshark pilot. Now, I can't speak to whether this is *the realistic way* or not.. but I know the Blackshark became much more enjoyable after I weaned myself off of the Trim Reset button.

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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Eh... there's both a trim and a trim reset. I assume you're talking about holding the trim and not holding the trim reset right? I don't even have trim reset bound.

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Can I propose that the reason some of us speculate that the AP/Trim/Cyclic may be unrealistic is because we're not using it realistically? To my earlier post; once I started turning off the *AP heading channel* to make a *heading change* rather than *resetting trim* just to change a single axis, things started feeling perfectly normal and realistic.

 

But... do you think real shark pilots keep removing their hand from the stick everytime they want to make heading adjustments (remember that the heading channel button in the real shark is not on the stick)?

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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But... do you think real shark pilots keep removing their hand from the stick everytime they want to make heading adjustments (remember that the heading channel button in the real shark is not on the stick)?

 

I'm proposing that maybe they don't activate the HeadingAP and AltAP channels unless they want to lock in heading and alt parameters. I fly like this and it seems very natural. But of course, I'm just speculating as we all are.

 

Not that the AP channels of the Blackshark should be equated to AP in fixed wing aircraft, but in a loose comparison the AP channels of the F-15 are also not on the HOTAS. Was it bad design to place the AP controls on the right horizontal panel? Yeah, probably. But as in other aircraft, those channels probably won't be used in dynamic situations where heavy maneuvers are required. I actually use the emergency AP release when performing evasive maneuvers such as with incoming missiles. The four channels are bound to the directions of my WH HOTAS CounterMeasures hat, and emergency release is CounterMeasures push. When I have incoming ATM, hitting AP release has saved my digital bacon more than once. The bird becomes ultra agile no channels engaged of course. In a non-evasive non-threat flight profile, while NOE for instance, the alt and heading channels really aren't that useful, whereas pitch and bank are helpful for stabilization. I would go as far as to say that most of the time if I'm using Heading and Alt AP I'm probably also in an autohover/autotarget profile, or in Auto Route. My speculation is that the real pilots of this bird might do the same thing, whereas we in the sim community see autopilot as an 'all or nothing' scenario because of habits carried over from fixed wing autopilot.

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It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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^^ What you're saying makes a lot of sense, specially because there are separated buttons for pitch, yaw and roll AP. I fly as recommended on the forum guides, with the three buttons always engaged and sometimes will use the emergency switch on the stick like you said, that will turn off all three also simultaneously. But if we're always engaging and disengaging all three channels simultaneously, why do we have three separated buttons in the first place?

 

On the other hand, the fact that the AP only has 20% authority makes me think otherwise: that it's supposed to be always on for the three channels, because it lets you maneuver kinda normally even against the AP. Not only @159th_Viper demonstrated it in his last video, but coincidentally when he posted that was about the same time I caught myself maneuvering without using the trim for relatively prolonged periods without realizing it. Plus you have to consider that the real benefit of having the three AP channels on AND FD off AND trim button not hold down is the incredible stability for doing strafing runs or firing Vikhrs. And this is at the same time the exact moment when ability to maneuver is most critical too. So from that I understand that you're meant to maneuver while having the three AP channels on, and that's the reason for AP having only 20% authority...

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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I like it StrongHarm.

 

I've recently been playing around with flying the thing with no AP enabled at all and focusing on aerobatics. It's pretty awesome for that but I prefer using pitch hold alone for general flying. I hadn't considered mapping them to a hat. I have them on four buttons just ahead of the throttle on my X65F. I think I'll put them on a hat.

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

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^^ What you're saying makes a lot of sense, specially because there are separated buttons for pitch, yaw and roll AP. I fly as recommended on the forum guides, with the three buttons always engaged and sometimes will use the emergency switch on the stick like you said, that will turn off all three also simultaneously. But if we're always engaging and disengaging all three channels simultaneously, why do we have three separated buttons in the first place?

 

On the other hand, the fact that the AP only has 20% authority makes me think otherwise: that it's supposed to be always on for the three channels, because it lets you maneuver kinda normally even against the AP. Not only @159th_Viper demonstrated it in his last video, but coincidentally when he posted that was about the same time I caught myself maneuvering without using the trim for relatively prolonged periods without realizing it. Plus you have to consider that the real benefit of having the three AP channels on AND FD off AND trim button not hold down is the incredible stability for doing strafing runs or firing Vikhrs. And this is at the same time the exact moment when ability to maneuver is most critical too. So from that I understand that you're meant to maneuver while having the three AP channels on, and that's the reason for AP having only 20% authority...

 

 

I absolutely agree with you; *pitch and bank* 20% authority does a lot to stabilize the aircraft. HeadingAP tries to point back to the heading queue and forces people to hold the Trim when they want to make a heading change (while, simply turning HeadingAP off, making your heading change, and turning it back on alters the heading of your queue and holds it just as trim does), and AltAP makes you overuse the collective (remember that time when you had the collective overcompensated and your rotors flew to pieces when it went over that 20% authority threshold abruptly?). Since I freed myself of 'all or nothing' Blackshark AP, me and the bird have become much closer friends.

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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For me the individual APs on your Hotas as well as the emergency AP disengage button brings this chopper into the realm of superb man machine integration.

 

 

If there was any flying machine that required the very best and advanced Hotas system, the KA-50 was it!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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The way that Ed has left the KA-50 and from my point of view; she is a fabulous machine armed with dreadfully fast precision high penetration missiles.

There is a lot to shout about in the KA-50 simulator!

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HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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You guys are a bunch of BLASPHEMERS!!!

Resist the dark side of 'all or nothing AP' and free yourself with 'AP individual axis awareness'.

 

There is a 12 step program if you're interested... we can provide you a sponsor and pendent keychain...

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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