Is the Ka-50 a similar experience to LB2?

I'm considering purchasing the Ka-50 module as a way to hopefully re-live some of the enjoyment I used to get from playing Longbow 2 back in the day, and am curious from any old-timers how well the DCS Blackshark experience re-creates how it felt to play LB2. Specifically, I enjoyed skulking through the mountain valleys, popping up to acquire targets and come up with a plan, then re-position and execute while (hopefully) avoiding any SAM or other air defenses that were thrown up before RTB.

How well does Blackshark gameplay/experience re-create this? Are the systems and flight re-creation similar enough, or is it just so different that I shouldn't have a similar expectation?

I'm relatively new to DCS, and have been enjoying the experience of just flying around in VR, though every forum here seems to be filled with dis-satisfied long-time customers, so I'm wondering if there are just so many problems I shouldn't invest the time in learning how to fly a module like this, and should instead stick to il-2 and iRacing.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Right now it’s as close as you can get in DCS but sadly the Black Shark isn’t really an Apache equivalent, being single seat and heavily automated, as well as having some limitations regarding the shkval and hmd compared to the Apache. But it’s still a great aircraft to fly.

I'm a long-time customer because I'm passionate about the aircraft. Over time things tend to break. It's a fact of life; it happens to everything eventually. When things break on a bird I love to fly, it's disheartening, but never "dis-satisfying".

The Ka-50 is by no means an Apache, but it is a powerhouse on the battlefield. You must realize, that to my knowledge, this is the only attack helicopter in the world that's flown by a single individual. That means you're doing the work of two people all the time. Yes it has a lot of automations, but you still have to single-handedly aviate the aircraft and employ its weapons.

Truthfully it's a joy to fly, thrilling to employ, and when combined with other Ka-50's shit really goes badly for enemy. I cannot recommend it enough.

Pick it up. I can almost guarantee you won't regret it.

I actually just started messing with it a bit last night for the first time (so many aircraft, so little time). It's really pretty interesting, and yeah, it's roughly equivalent to the Apache, although in truth the Ka-52 (what the Ka-50 was actually developed into) seems to me to be much closer to an Apache analog. The 50 is more or less a pre-production test run, almost but not quite a prototype.

I'm considering purchasing the Ka-50 module as a way to hopefully re-live some of the enjoyment I used to get from playing Longbow 2 back in the day, and am curious from any old-timers how well the DCS Blackshark experience re-creates how it felt to play LB2. Specifically, I enjoyed skulking through the mountain valleys, popping up to acquire targets and come up with a plan, then re-position and execute while (hopefully) avoiding any SAM or other air defenses that were thrown up before RTB.

 

How well does Blackshark gameplay/experience re-create this? Are the systems and flight re-creation similar enough, or is it just so different that I shouldn't have a similar expectation?

 

I cannot comment on the KA-50 in particular, as I don't fly that thing (although it is in my hangar), but gameplay-wise I think DCS is much harder than LB2 back in the old days. In LB2 enemy tanks and AD were much more visible than in DCS, and your SA was generally very high. The latter might of course be due to the Longbow radar that you don't have in DCS, not even with the KA-50 which is the most advanced playable attack helicopter in DCS right now.

LB2 had a great general atmosphere with the AI interacting with you and gimics like the AH-64D indoctrination, and it was fantastic that you could also fly the Kiowa and the Blackhawk, it was all US Army in and out. I think this atmosphere cannot be recreated with DCS at the moment, and in general DCS is not a simulation that is tailored around (combat) helicopter ops but more around fast-movers, considering deficiencies with FARPS, the killer AI (tanks!), terrain and obstacle limitations...

However, what's the alternative? There isn't anything else out there right now, so if you want to simulate modern combat ops with helicopters, there is no way around DCS, and I think it will become better for heli ops eventually.

GaryM05,

I flew LB 2 back in the day (solo and multi) and have flown the Blackshark since it was first released in DCS World. That doesn't make me an expert on it.. just someone who has flown it a great deal for years.

Bottom Line: Yes.... tactical flying matters, doing recon for targets and establishing battle positions is rewarded (or possibly punished if you just rush in or don't mind terrain).

You can receive and do target handoffs with up to three other Blackshark pilots so that part of LB 2 is kind of recreated here... just differently that an Apache with the radar.

It has a good set of ordnance loadouts available so that makes it fun.... but the Ordnance is different than you would find on the Apache.... so you'll have to get use to the strengths and weaknesses of those... and the learning part is fun (for me).

As noted by others... it is a challenge to fly and fight given you are doing it all alone... it is a study sim helo :book:but that's part of the fun of it all learning the system nuances and subsystems. I would be less than honest if I said learning and remembering everything about the Autopilot system, abris etc etc didn't give me a headache once or twice in the past.... :)

And some times flying/fighting all that way to a target area only to find it obliterated already by the FW dudes and dudettes can be frustrating .. but again.. the experience of it all I truly enjoy..even when that happens...

Some times it's only the RW Pilots that can find what's left in a target area to clear it out for the side your flying with on multiplayer servers …

If you liked LB 2 you will very likely enjoy the KA-50 if you give yourself time to learn it. And the fact ED is tweaking it for a BS 3 release makes it a good time to jump in on it and start learning.

Last note... you said you are flying VR.... I flew originally 3 screens with TrackIR and when I got into VR a while back I was grinning ear-to-ear to actually be "sitting in" the KA-50 … and I'm still grinning..

'nuff said

Enjoy !

I played LB Gold, LB2, EEAH/EECH (all very similar) extensively and switching to the Ka-50 came with a huge step up in complexity and workload:

No almighty mast mounted radar, no RWR*, no MWS*, no FLIR (only TV), no copilot to help you in any way, finicky beam riding ATGMs, manually datalinking individual targets (no auto-saving of targets or NFZs/PFZs), a dozen individual systems, several quirks you absolutely need to know about (...). Just flying/trimming takes some time to get used to and it doesn't help that people are still spreading wrong information about the 'autopilot' 11 years after release (don't trust anybody telling you to tap the trimmer; hold it).

*(the BS3 upgrade supposedly will add RWR and MWS, but it's still not gonna be 'magic' like in LB2)

Most of your fundamentals/tactics will probably work just fine in DCS, but forget everything you learned about the AH-64 in LB2. The Ka-50 works very very differently and it's not a simplified sim like LB2 was. It'll take quiet a while to learn!

It's still a very capable attack helicopter and I found learning about it very rewarding. It's especially fun in multiplayer when you coordinate with other Ka-50s.

If you decide to pick up the Ka-50 I highly recommend the "Deployment" campaign. It's rather easy and a good place to practice what you've learned.

However, get the unofficial patch for that campaign, because some missions have been 'broken' since the big 2.5 update years ago. ED is focusing on new content rather than maintaining old modules. BTW That's one of the reasons some customers/long time supporters are more than dissatisfied. Maybe they'll update the missions with the upcoming BS3 upgrade, but who knows.

If you want to fly in multiplayer, apply to a squad that focuses on helicopters and custom missions. Jets are by far more popular in DCS and this is reflected in almost every public multiplayer server. It's either a boring turkey shoot or you're put up against totally unreasonable air defenses. Nothing beats a well thought out mission that's all about helicopters.

I think you'll find the flight model is BSx is rather more realistic than LB2, but tactically everyone else is right - it's a helicopter and NOE flight is generally the way to go.

As regards multiplayer, I'm currently working on a whole raft of helo only (or helo as main role with FW support after) missions to build into a multiplayer campaign which I will put online after it's been tested...

Watch this space.

Thanks for all the responses - they're all super-helpful to read! Based on all of this, I bought the Ka-50 just before the end of the DCS sale yesterday, and can't wait to take the plunge and start learning & flying!

Thanks again for all of the thoughts - I've been impressed with how helpful this community is! :)

Something else to consider is the upcoming [release date tbd] OH-58D module being developed by Polychop Simulations. This may more closely resemble the old LB2 experience of using a mast-mounted sensor system to acquire targets from behind terrain masking, though of course the primary job of the OH-58D was not to go out and kill 16 tanks.

I actually bought the KA-50 because I was looking for exactly the same thing as you -- something to give me the feeling that LB2 did. It ain't the same... but I also have to say that even though I have a ton to learn about the Black Shark still, I've had a lot of fun and agree that it's the closest thing available today.

By the way, if you haven't tried the UH-1, consider that. When my head is spinning from learning all the systems on the KA-50 and I just want the challenge and fun of flying a helicopter, I retreat into the UH-1. No fancy sensors or autopilot, all unguided weapons, but a whole lot of fun.

Hi GaryM05,

I too came from LB2 and if the truth be told I do miss it.

So to get my Chopper fix I hopped into the KA-50.

The KA-50 Flight Simulator is unlike the LB2” “Game” so the learning curve will be different.

There is no Pool Table no broad cast on the TV about a new war and you get called into action and complete the campaign- yes I miss that part too.

This Ka-50 is as good as it gets if you want to get back up and flying again.

The path you are trodding is the same as most LB2 players have chosen to walk.

So welcome and happy hunting.

Indeed, when it comes to atmosphere nothing beats LB2! (or LB Gold for that matter)

DCS World is all about accuracy (might differ from person to person what that mean exactly), but lacks atmosphere.

That said you will have tons of fun with the Shark. And don't listen to the people still spreading wrong information about the 'autopilot' 11 years after release (don't trust anybody telling you to hold the trimmer; find the method best suited for your ;-) ).

PS you all know LB2 and LB Gold can still be run on Windows 7 and 10, do you? I have both (and Comanche 3) on my Win7. You need a controller with maximum of 4 axis or it won't be recognized correctly. And they are not VR ready...

 

PS you all know LB2 and LB Gold can still be run on Windows 7 and 10, do you? I have both (and Comanche 3) on my Win7. You need a controller with maximum of 4 axis or it won't be recognized correctly. And they are not VR ready...

I worked for Novalogic for a while and was tech consultant on Comanche 3 and Comanche 4, as well as the simulator program for the DoD... Happy days.

KA-50 did prove the hypothesis that single pilot can operate attack helicopter effectively. It's workload is similar to single seated fighters, so F/A-18C, F-16C, M2000 etc comes to play in comparison. So example for how well can you operate TPOD and fly same time in some of those aircrafts?

I fly alone gazelle, and I same time pilot it as well operate Viviane and all without any autopilot. So I can search and engage targets in hover or on the move, it doesn't really matter.

But, KA-50 is multiple times easier alone. Because its autopilot, stability, sensors design and cockpit layout.

Compared to any other, the KABRIS in KA-50 makes lot of things easy. You get to designate targets not just to your wingmen, but you get them stored as well for later on. This makes recon -> attack -process easy. As you don't need to write down your coordinates, target heading and distance etc.

If you command AI wingmen, you can tell them where to fly and from where to engage target. You see them on the KABRIS so you get good awareness how to operate as flight.

The KABRIS makes navigation and planning super easy. Easier than any fighter really. You can create new flight plans, modify them and all by using a five buttons and one knob with push (mainly with just it). With it you can easily search locations by town names etc, you can see the altitude differences, you see the known SAM/Radar locations spotting altitude estimations etc.

So when you start to scout, spot enemies etc, you don't just see the stores targets positions or your flight plan on map, you will see your actual flight route you draw on the map. So you can just go flying and then later on at safe you can look the route you were flying and then make designations there later on.

The KA-50 doesn't have a radar nor RWR in current form. The upcoming "Black Shark 3" gets the "President-S" countermeasure suite that by the manufacturer specifications includes RWR and even radar jamming capability in the IR jammers turrets and UV sensors. But ED has said they don't want to implement that.

And that is truly KA-50 weakness as it can't detect when a AAA or SAM targets at it with radar or where Early Warning radars are etc. So you are completely in visual spotting against them.

And that is KA-50 problem. Your visibility to outside is poor. You sit in complete armored cockpit, unlike the other helicopters and even AH-64 and AH-1 are, as those has only front windshield armored and the cockpit sides. In first Gulf War there was one incident where AH-64 flight was surprised by small arms fire at night over city. Everyone was just shooting up in the air etc, and one helicopter gunner (IIRC) got bullet hit from the bottom and he was just screaming in the intercom. The incoming fire scared pilots away.

The KA-50 will protect you as pilot from such, but there is lots of vulnerable equipment outside your bulletproof cockpit. But you can take fire fairly well, as long you get as quickly away as possible.

That means as you are flying NOE and seeking targets, you have high changes to survive. But that sudden AAA fire is deadly...

And your capability to look anywhere to rear hemisphere is bad.

And that is the weakness of KA-50 as in tandem other can be looking outside while other use optical devices, or simultaneously look out. Compare this like to F-14B when dogfighting, where WSO only job is to keep looking enemy and call where it is relative to own aircraft. So pilot with limited visibility can focus to flying and getting nose on target.

Now if one flies Mi-8 and is on tasked to spot specific targets, it is super easy when there is three pairs of eyes looking outside. In UH-1H it would be four as your gunners too are there to spot things. But in KA-50 you are alone, but you can have a wingman with nice and better perspective to assist you.

But when it comes to actual targeting, KA-50 falls down. Not solely because it's lack of night capabilities as it is day/low light capable, but simply that it doesn't have FLIR or even LLTV as updated model does.

But the main problem is that Shkval targeting system doesn't have realistic contrast based locking. So you are fighting against it to lock on target. It doesn't either have the laser spot searching or automatic target search & lock (lack of FLIR). And that is the most frustrating thing, as you can have a target super clean on the screen, but Shkval says "Nope, can't see a thing!" because there is no contrast locking.

Then there are bugs that Shkval starts wandering by itself, and middle of guidance it might laze itself from example 6km to 0.2km and sleeve to behind you. So at this moment it is broken and has been since release. Hopefully we see fixes for this....

But when it works as suppose, it does great! It is easy and fast to quickly switch from target to target, fly same time and launch weapons.

You can fire with the cannon by using your HMS reticle by having target inside cannon gimbal limits. So you can example perform fly-by and just shoot targets by looking at them.

At longer ranges it becomes super easy to sleeve Shkval on target, designate and store to KABRIS etc. Or simply launch a Vikhr at it's direction. And you don't need to be on hover when doing these, but you just fly around.

For cannon and rocket attacks, you can either enable Flight Director that dampens your inputs and disables Autopilot channels for the time until you disable FD mode. Or you can just press and hold trim button to do same, until you release from button and you just programmed AP to fly at those parameters. This example makes very easy to start attack run by first flying with AP, you launching few Vikhrs at targets, and closer range you turn cannon on and you shoot where you look with HMS, or you press and hold trimmer to take dampened manual control and shoot some rockets while straffing. And then you just release from button after pass and let AP continue flying.

What comes to pop-up etc. It is just so easy even if you don't have gunner. Maybe even easier as the automatic target tracking (when it works) or automatic piloting makes possible for you to do other things same time. Like while you wait a Vikhr hitting target, you can be looking outside or managing a KABRIS. When you are flying, you can be looking outside for targets or search them with Shkval.

It time it comes as second nature, and as you don't need to communicate with other, it is effective. But best experience comes when you have wingmen and you go hunting together. That is fun.

But then you will find that KA-50 weapons lack flexibility. As you don't really have than two Kh-25ML rockets to be fired at other designated target, even when in reality KA-50 can carry four of them. The anti-radiation variants are missing so you can't do SEAD.

We likely don't get the Ugroza rockets either, that would turn every S-8 or S-13 rocket as guided ones.

There are no missiles capable for Lock-On-After-Launch like Apache. So you can't range the target, lob few Hellfires lofting to target area from cover, pop-up when timer counts near impact and designate targets for terminal guidance when Hellfires impact from above.

But, Vikhr is fast, you can do simultaneously pop-ups with wingmen or in turns. Share targets and get quickly targets destroyed. As Vikhr is faster than most SAM missiles, and you have up to 8-10km range with them. IIRC it is 23 seconds from launch that Vikhr is at 10km range. In that same time hellfire is at 5-6km and TOW around 3-4km. And against SAM like Strela-10M or Avenger with FIM-92, you get to destroy them and get back to cover before their IR missiles reaches you.

It is very interesting helicopter to fly, to destroy targets and operate KABRIS and wingmen. Alone it is vulnerable and can get boring as you just programmed helicopter do what you want and then you sit back while it flies even almost whole flight plan autonomous manner.

And maybe it's major problem (if not counted missing features, targeting system bugs etc) is just it's visibility outside. As you are not doing sightseeing with it at all. It is for combat, lives in battlezone and hunts in packs, like real sharks.

"Black Shark 3" has lots to improve and make functional. Like I am waiting the Shkval filters to be implemented so we could finally get it better. And get actually working contrast detection so we can lock anything easily, even if it is a tree or a window in a building.

As without working contrast detection, you can't easily target low level flying aircrafts as you would need to be manually tracking them.

The old Longbow 2 was great because it's dynamic missions. You can fix those by making own etc. But DCS needs many other things improved first.

Just don't go flying in multiplayer as you can be easily spotted by various reasons and you don't have a CAP/SAM protection as suppose, and defineatly not the GCI keeping sky clear behalf of you...