Aim9P To cage or uncage

Interesting article from 1982 USAF Fighter Weapons Newsletter. Just posting here for interest

Interesting !

Indeed very interesting read! Thanks :)

Interesting read =).

And it also strengthened my Belief that the Aim-9P in DCS is very much under performing.

Since several times he said the Aim-9P had high maneuverability etc.

And this is very much not the case with the 1.5.4 state of the Aim-9P/P4 where its at Aim-9B levels of performance when it comes to maneuverability (and over all)

But then again hopefully that was fixed in the latest 2.0.3 update so it should be there in this Friday update.

Since the Aim-9P was not a bad missile (it was not the best missile for long but it was not a bad missile either).

And will also be interesting to play around with not caging the missile in the next update.

Since ATM with the bugged Seeker Lock FOV uncaging the seeker is more or less required to maintain any lock for more then a fraction of a second.

Playing the F5 in 2.0 recently was AMAZING.

The AA1 pipper actually working and the missile FOV fixed with proper missile pipper alignment made the fights a lot more calculated and less guesswork/jerking on the stick.

I can't wait for the 1.5 fixes to go in (hopefully this Friday).

It seems all the heaters still need some fixing. I'm finding AIM-9Ms doing fairly poorly as well against only moderate maneuvering.

The F-4 pilot writes: It would be nice if we had a visual cue on the HUD that showed the pilot where the missile seeker is looking when uncaged, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait until MPC hands you the keys to an F-15 or F-16 with AIM-9Ls before you have that luxury.

The things we take for granted!!! hmmm..... :smoke:

Briliant article, thank you for sharing IvanK!

S!

Aim9P To cage or uncage

I can confirm, that in 2.0 everything is way better. :) Just a joy to see the pipper snapping to a target in DG Mode and actually hitting without giving much lead.

The F-4 pilot writes: It would be nice if we had a visual cue on the HUD that showed the pilot where the missile seeker is looking when uncaged, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait until MPC hands you the keys to an F-15 or F-16 with AIM-9Ls before you have that luxury.

 

The things we take for granted!!! hmmm..... :smoke:

 

Briliant article, thank you for sharing IvanK!

 

S!

Actually I think the tiger's pipper should follow the uncaged seeker head. Thats what I had to test when I was weapons maintenance on the swiss F-5. Someone would stand outside, shine a torch into the seeker head and I had to sit in the cockpit, press uncage and see, if the pipper moves in the same way that the guy moves the torch (the IR signature of a torch is enough, from a lighter as well for that matter, but only up to about 20 meters). Now I dont know if the swiss version is that much different, but it doesn't have any different aiming system that the standard US one. So as far as I know, it should have a moving MSL pipper. (the guy in the article is talking about the F-4 not having that feature, right?)

I'm not getting the growl, only a blank sound, during lock. Noticed it last night.

Bug, or missing sound file? The missile tracks true though.

Great article. Thanks!

-Jeff

I'm not getting the growl, only a blank sound, during lock. Noticed it last night.

 

Bug, or missing sound file? The missile tracks true though.

 

Great article. Thanks!

 

-Jeff

Could you maybe upload a youtube video?

Being a null seeker, once uncaged the missile will go to perfect track and the tone level will drop dramatically.

I am a bit confused about this last bit. So Captain Deano is saying once you uncage the missile and the seeker tracks the target perfectly, then the amount of tone drops dramatically? You would think it would be the opposite where the better the track the more insistent the tone. Must have been a technological shortcoming of the seeker?

JD

AKA_MattE

Being a null seeker, once uncaged the missile will go to perfect track and the tone level will drop dramatically.

 

I am a bit confused about this last bit.

I'm not sure but IRL I think the audio tone pitch changes when the seeker sees an IR source and it's amplitude (volume) decreases to a minimum when tracking perfectly.

The combination of change of pitch and volume makes it easier for the pilot to listen for (else a weak IR track/lock would be hard to hear).

Hopefully someone with RL experience will chip in and correct me if I'm wrong?

Excellent read :thumbup:

I'm not getting the growl, only a blank sound, during lock. Noticed it last night.

 

Bug, or missing sound file? The missile tracks true though.

 

Great article. Thanks!

 

-Jeff

turn up the missile seeker volume nob.

A follow up from the USAF fighter weapons Review just 12 months later. very F4 Centric but discussion on the Very low amount smoke with the P and a change of thought on the cage versus uncage.

The term "Combat Sage" refers to a USAF PACAF missile exploitation study/program

Can't wait to try out the "fixed" missile in today's update. Only sidewinder kills so far have been either caged or against targets flying straight under no gee load.

Today's update made a hell of a difference. You will likely be pleased.;)

Yes, the F-5 is definitely a more dangerous foe now; the AIM-9P5 is significantly better. It's faster, turns better, acquires targets better and the seeker FOV is fixed. The gunsight is also fixed so that when you go into DG mode you get better lead information.

I had quite a few kills today with the missiles on targets that were maneuvering and pulling multiple G's so that made a huge difference.

While the Mig-21 still has several advantages, the F-5 should not be underestimated in the right hands!

This is now my favorite module, hands-down!

I agree! It even locks headon now, and the motor is pretty much smokeless too. All those migs accustomed to no head-on offense are super surprised now :megalol: :joystick: :pilotfly:

But to stay on-topic, I always uncage. Mapped it to the brakes-in switch on the warthog hotas, so I dont have ro hold it. Had good results, even with the old Aim9, got a bunch of kills off boresight, but the lead solution had to be spot on. I was quite excited when I first saw the missile take off, felt like twice the speed. Dont know how fast it really is, but noticeably faster.

Actually I think the tiger's pipper should follow the uncaged seeker head. Thats what I had to test when I was weapons maintenance on the swiss F-5. Someone would stand outside, shine a torch into the seeker head and I had to sit in the cockpit, press uncage and see, if the pipper moves in the same way that the guy moves the torch (the IR signature of a torch is enough, from a lighter as well for that matter, but only up to about 20 meters). Now I dont know if the swiss version is that much different, but it doesn't have any different aiming system that the standard US one. So as far as I know, it should have a moving MSL pipper. (the guy in the article is talking about the F-4 not having that feature, right?)

Interesting looking at the USAF Weapons Manual and the NAVY F5EN manual it says within limits that after radar lock the Missile Pipper is aligned with the radar line of site to indicate relative Target position ... pseudo TD box. We see this in game if locked from a manual lock. However if locked from DM mode the pipper remains in the centre of the reticle. I think it should again move to indicate radar LOS.

Being a null seeker, once uncaged the missile will go to perfect track and the tone level will drop dramatically.

 

I am a bit confused about this last bit. So Captain Deano is saying once you uncage the missile and the seeker tracks the target perfectly, then the amount of tone drops dramatically? You would think it would be the opposite where the better the track the more insistent the tone. Must have been a technological shortcoming of the seeker?

 

JD

AKA_MattE

Some detail from the Navy F5EN manual on "null tone" :

Would the null tone happen also with newer FM modulated seeker heads or is it only feature in the older AM modulated seekers?

Some docs describing the the seeker modulation:

[ame]http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a286117.pdf[/ame]

http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Sidewinder_article#Amplitude_Modulated_tracking

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Sidewinder-94.html

Basically AM seeker doesn't give any signal to the seeker steering system when it's pointed directly at the target while FM modulate seeker does. To my knowledge the audio tone from a Sidewinder is directly taken from the seeker steering signal. AM modulated missiles should also give different tone than FM modulated missiles besides the null tone difference. AM modulated seeker gives a louder tone when it sees a target while FM modulated gives a louder and higher pitched tone.

Interesting article from 1982 USAF Fighter Weapons Newsletter. Just posting here for interest

Hi Ivan,do you still have this article? I cannot open here with this link. Thanks!

Hi Ivan,do you still have this article? I cannot open here with this link. Thanks!