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Multi-crew for one huey implemented or not?


chanrobi

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It's nice to read, that the multiplayer multicrew for the Huey isn't dead. I do have some other modules for DCS, so it's not going to get boring, but multicrew for the Huey would be awesome. Maybe I'll try it even first in the Gazelle.

 

But one thing I don't get: Why is it a problem making the whole cockpit accessible for both crew? If my copilot switches off the engine while on an attack run, he's an idiot (or a mean flight instructor ;-P).

 

I don't own the L-39. It has two cockpit and I guess - while most of the cockpit controls are separate for each cockpit - the flight controls aren't, right? So when this works apparently for the flight controls, why doesn't it for ordinary cockpit controls?

I don't see an issue with this? But maybe one of you could enlighten me.

Thanks!

An example. Both pilots have a HOTAS Warthog throttle. Using a 3-way switch, say the EAC for the "Master Arm switch". Now the ON/off/ON switch has two constant ON positions. You need to keep them synced, or you have one switch in the up the other in the off or down position at the same time (that isn't even considering network sync issues in the first place).

 

Now with "Master Arm" that isn't much trouble as you can switch between the safe and off position with no impact on the weapons, but the overhead panel Main generator will be fun if accidentally "reset" and set to "off" midflight... and this is just switches, and just for the Huey.

 

The more complex the module is, the more important is keeping switches and systems in sync, without accidentally triggering something.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Of course it's not possible to sync two different hardware switches in two different real world locations with each other. You can work around it though, so that your hardware switch will not affect the virtual switch until you have put it in the same position as the virtual switch. It's going to be a little more inconvenient, yes, but there is really no way around it, short of both pilots having controllers with server motors that move the switches of the other player's controller.

 

An alternative is to only interact with the virtual cockpit with the mouse or a hand controller in VR. Then it just becomes a question of whose hand will take precedence if both players try to manipulate the same switch at once.

 

It's definitely doable, to make a cockpit with shared controls. Anyone saying otherwise is just making up lame excuses because it's harder to do than two separate cockpits or set of controls.

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Of course it's not possible to sync two different hardware switches in two different real world locations with each other. You can work around it though, so that your hardware switch will not affect the virtual switch until you have put it in the same position as the virtual switch. It's going to be a little more inconvenient, yes, but there is really no way around it, short of both pilots having controllers with server motors that move the switches of the other player's controller.

 

An alternative is to only interact with the virtual cockpit with the mouse or a hand controller in VR. Then it just becomes a question of whose hand will take precedence if both players try to manipulate the same switch at once.

 

It's definitely doable, to make a cockpit with shared controls. Anyone saying otherwise is just making up lame excuses because it's harder to do than two separate cockpits or set of controls.

 

Nobody says it is not doable. It just is more complicated than in seperate cockpits.

 

As for the "lame excuses" feel free to show us how quickly and easy you can do this.

 

Oh, and just not to forget, the platform you program for is changing from time to time... 1.5 to 2.0, 2.0 to 2.2, 2.2 to 2.5 all with minor and major changes and the one or other bug...

Shagrat

 

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Oh, I'm sorry if I stepped on a sore toe. My apologies.

 

As for the "show us how quickly I can do it myself", that's just asinine. I don't have insight or knowledge about the specific code of DCS. I don't work for DCS, and I'm not a programmer. Of course I couldn't do it quicker than someone working for ED. I do, however, possess a sense of logic and reasoning, and I have a basic understanding of programming.

 

But if you are not saying that it's not doable, then the statement above about lame excuses does not apply to you, logically.

 

Then again, if you are saying that you won't do it because it's too hard, that's a lame excuse.

 

I have complete sympathy for it being hard and taking time. And I am grateful for the effort being put into the module.

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multicrew would be good for training, having a live instructor that can take control or correct the student when they make a mistake, not like the automated "instructor" we now have that does not correct a mistake and then falls asleep.

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Then again, if you are saying that you won't do it because it's too hard, that's a lame excuse.

 

I have complete sympathy for it being hard and taking time. And I am grateful for the effort being put into the module.

That was what Belsimtek said. "It isn't that easy", " they want to do it right", "which takes time".

 

We all, would love to have this implemented sooner than later, but it is not a simple addition of some lines of code and a handful of key binds.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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It seems that conflicting commands between the pilot and co-pilot is a problem. In RL the pilot in command PIC decides who is flying the aircraft. So what about a toggle command line (key bind) that lets the PIC or instructor decide who is in control of the aircraft, then there will be no conflicts.

 

As in "I have the plane". It could be set in preflight as to who will be the PIC.


Edited by john9001
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...

And if you don't have your controls in the exact same configuration when the switch is made? What do you think will happen? In an emergency were no time exist to make sure your controls are in the same position? And as already been mentioned, network lag? How will it affects the flying?

It is much more than the controls to handle before you reach a functional and pleasant experience for both pilots.

I'm pretty sceptical they will ever make it. Not due to lack of effort and dedication, MAYBE due to economical implications, but most certainly due to overwhelming synchronization difficulties not in the hands of ED to solve, i.e. network, hardware, controllers...

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The controls are synchronized, when the PIC moves a switch the switch on the co-pilot aircraft also moves. As I said before, only one person is in control at a time.
The switch maybe, but not the axis.

So you need to ensure a smooth transition of the axis' from the cyclic and collective position of pilot 1 to worst case, a totally different position of pilot 2.

I remember the first beta tests with the L-39C and the Gazelle... Let's say it isn't that simple. ;)

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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The switch maybe, but not the axis.

So you need to ensure a smooth transition of the axis' from the cyclic and collective position of pilot 1 to worst case, a totally different position of pilot 2.

I remember the first beta tests with the L-39C and the Gazelle... Let's say it isn't that simple. ;)

 

For the axis, one way may be to use the control indicator. When you use the Huey autopilot, there are white indicators showing where the autopilot has positioned the controls in relation to your stick position. If you turn off autopilot with them far apart, you get that jarring movement you describe. Therefore, I always use the control indicator to get my controls close before turning off the autopilot.

 

In real life, when I hand control to my FO, I always brief that I’m going to give him control and wait until he says “standing by” before giving control. A similar procedure could be used for multi crew, where the pilot who is going to take control needs to get his controls close to yours using the indicator before you hand it over...

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For the axis, one way may be to use the control indicator. When you use the Huey autopilot, there are white indicators showing where the autopilot has positioned the controls in relation to your stick position. If you turn off autopilot with them far apart, you get that jarring movement you describe. Therefore, I always use the control indicator to get my controls close before turning off the autopilot.

 

In real life, when I hand control to my FO, I always brief that I’m going to give him control and wait until he says “standing by” before giving control. A similar procedure could be used for multi crew, where the pilot who is going to take control needs to get his controls close to yours using the indicator before you hand it over...

In "real life" the controls are coupled and the cyclic and collective are always in the exact same position. When switching controls you loosely grab the cyclic and follow the moves, then with the "you have controls" you grab it firmly.

 

As for the axis, of course you can use the visual reference of the controls indicator, that is how it works since introduced, but if you don't you have drastic changes of the input axis in milliseconds, which can cause interesting results.

 

I am sure they will implement it, I am not sure "how" the implementation will look like, or what we can, or cannot do.

 

What I personally miss, is the simple option, to ride the Co-Pilot (Mission commander) seat, without any interaction, but just as a navigator or instructor giving support and advice.

That should not be too hard to implement and it could bridge the time until a full blown Multi-crew for helos is developed. :dunno:

Shagrat

 

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Well let’s hope it’s not like the terrain following autopilot of the 80 in the Apache I think it was no lag for reaction on then off that fast then most crashed until they gradually gave over control over 15-30 seconds iirc

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As for the axis, of course you can use the visual reference of the controls indicator, that is how it works since introduced, but if you don't you have drastic changes of the input axis in milliseconds, which can cause interesting results.

 

Yup, that’s precisely what I’m advocating. It works fine when I turn off the “autopilot”, it should work fine when handing control over too. I think it’s a fairly easy issue to overcome.

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Yup, that’s precisely what I’m advocating. It works fine when I turn off the “autopilot”, it should work fine when handing control over too. I think it’s a fairly easy issue to overcome.
Would you as a customer feel ok, with your car coming with a notice, that "in order to have the brakes work as advertised, you simply need to keep the steering wheel centered and the indicators must be off", or would you like the manufacturer to fix that or find a better solution?

 

My guess is, they want to make it right... And very speculative guess: with the Hind and Cobra in the works and the F-14 on the horizon, maybe they are working on AI Co-Pilot(s) similar to Jester AI?

 

Again, I would be very happy with a simple navigator / ride along seat for the time being.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Would you as a customer feel ok, with your car coming with a notice, that "in order to have the brakes work as advertised, you simply need to keep the steering wheel centered and the indicators must be off", or would you like the manufacturer to fix that or find a better solution?

 

My guess is, they want to make it right... And very speculative guess: with the Hind and Cobra in the works and the F-14 on the horizon, maybe they are working on AI Co-Pilot(s) similar to Jester AI?

 

Again, I would be very happy with a simple navigator / ride along seat for the time being.

 

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but I don’t follow the connection... All I’m saying is that one can use the control indicator to ensure his control axis are lined up with the other players before handing over control. Without truly connected controls, I don’t see any other way around it. If this isn’t an acceptable solution for you, I guess we will just need to agree to disagree.

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I suggest the logic for stick and cyclic input should work like this:

A value for the amount of movement should be determined for all axis combined, stick and collective. Pilot and co-pilot each have their own value. If the value is above a low threshold, then that person is considered active. If both are active, then the inputs should be averaged. If one person is moving his controls less, the average should shift weight towards the one moving more. If one stops movement below the threshold, the control should go to the other, smoothed over 1-2 seconds or less.

 

When i talk about amount of movement, I don't mean amount of static deflection, but actual movement, the derivative.

 

With this logic, both pilots can fight each other, the result being no input, or each can take over when the other stops moving the stick. Pilots will have to communicate who has the control, and transitions should be smooth. The threshold serves to eliminate axis jitter causing an inactive stick to be determined active. Thoughts?

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I suggest the logic for stick and cyclic input should work like this:

A value for the amount of movement should be determined for all axis combined, stick and collective. Pilot and co-pilot each have their own value. If the value is above a low threshold, then that person is considered active. If both are active, then the inputs should be averaged. If one person is moving his controls less, the average should shift weight towards the one moving more. If one stops movement below the threshold, the control should go to the other, smoothed over 1-2 seconds or less.

 

When i talk about amount of movement, I don't mean amount of static deflection, but actual movement, the derivative.

 

With this logic, both pilots can fight each other, the result being no input, or each can take over when the other stops moving the stick. Pilots will have to communicate who has the control, and transitions should be smooth. The threshold serves to eliminate axis jitter causing an inactive stick to be determined active. Thoughts?

My proposal in the SA-342 Gazelle thread a while ago was, to activate the AI (Auto-Pilot) on the active Pilot's "you have control"-click , while Autopilot controls the axis, transfer the complete flight model and system modeling to the second client, then on the " I have control "-click, "deactivate" AI Autopilot and transfer axis back to the new pilot.

That still won't solve the issue with the buttons not synced, but it could solve the network lag and transition issues.

 

Problem is, it is just an idea and we don't know if it is "easy" to implement, or working at all, with no details that only the developers know.

 

We need to be patient and see what ED is coming up with.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Again, I would be very happy with a simple navigator / ride along seat for the time being.

 

If I could just load my friends up (or just a friend) as gunners only I would be happy. It would be so badass to go cruising through the valleys with my friends as gunners. I would buy them all the module lol.

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If I could just load my friends up (or just a friend) as gunners only I would be happy. It would be so badass to go cruising through the valleys with my friends as gunners. I would buy them all the module lol.
Me too :D

 

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  • 3 months later...
You can't send confirmations back and forth over a UDP connection. On a TCP connection the latency increases and performance will be reduced tremendously. On a typical asynchronous connection (more download bandwidth than upload bandwidth) with higher numbers of players you may clog the connection with ACK and re-send packages need to be acknowledged again, thus some info can be delayed for more than a "couple" dozen milliseconds.

Quite honestly, this can't be that big of a deal.

 

 

We're racing close to each other in racing sims with only centimeters between the cars online and it is working out.

Flipping switches in a flight sim just can't be that big of a deal.

 

 

The only (and main) issue is what happens if you have opposing inputs on the same function, but that can be circumvented e.g. by defining master controls and slave controls (possibly differently for different parts in the cockpit) + corresponding notification if a mismatch occurs.

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