Jump to content

Inside-out tracking vs base stations


Speedywrx

Recommended Posts

I've had the original Odyssey for a while and it's been... ok... with tracking. I do all the recommended things like having a brightly lit room. Every time I dogfight looking back, it always loses tracking and pops me out of the canopy.

 

I was looking at the HP Reverb, but someone else had reported issues with tracking too every once in a while (I didn't want to hijack his thread).

 

I'm thinking about getting a Valve index.

1) Do HMDs with base stations track significantly better than inside-out tracking?

2) I figure 2 base stations is the requirement, but will having more around will improve the tracking?

 

I can place a base station at 12 on top of the monitor, 2nd station at 4:30 position and 3rd at 7:30 for coverage all around regardless where I look.

 

Thanks.

i7-7700k OC'd to 5.0 GHz, ASUS 1080ti OC, 32 GB 3200 MHz G.Skill, Samsung 960 pro M.2, Thrustmaster Warthog, Saitek pedals, Valve Index HMD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly the Index tracking will be better than WMR tracking, or inside out tracking.

As far as base stations I am not that familiar with them - I would think for seated games one would be enough but better to hear from those that have used them.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Index is inside out tracking as well... base stations have lasers inside that project a invisible (to the human eye) grid into your room. The headset sees this grid and it uses it to make precise calculations of your movements, as opposed to say WMR which sees your furniture only and has to go off that. The tracking is spot on with no issues.

 

The index headset does all the work with that in mind, the base stations aren't hooked up to your PC and telling it where the headset is, hence its aided inside out.

 

You really only need one base station if all you do is seated play, assuming you never duck your head out of view of the base station. 2 is essential if you ever intend to stand up and play 360 degree "roomscale" games. 3 is a complete waste of money unless your room has serious obstructions or is larger than the recommended play area.


Edited by Vullcan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I didn’t realize it was a different method of inside out tracking. Sounds like 2 would be ok since if I look behind me, the single base station in front would lose the headset.

 

Glad to hear that tracking is superior with the base stations.

i7-7700k OC'd to 5.0 GHz, ASUS 1080ti OC, 32 GB 3200 MHz G.Skill, Samsung 960 pro M.2, Thrustmaster Warthog, Saitek pedals, Valve Index HMD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had the original Odyssey for a while and it's been... ok... with tracking. I do all the recommended things like having a brightly lit room. Every time I dogfight looking back, it always loses tracking and pops me out of the canopy.

 

I was looking at the HP Reverb, but someone else had reported issues with tracking too every once in a while (I didn't want to hijack his thread).

 

I'm thinking about getting a Valve index.

1) Do HMDs with base stations track significantly better than inside-out tracking?

2) I figure 2 base stations is the requirement, but will having more around will improve the tracking?

 

I can place a base station at 12 on top of the monitor, 2nd station at 4:30 position and 3rd at 7:30 for coverage all around regardless where I look.

 

Thanks.

 

Reverb is a reasonable choice for flight sims, and WMR a good way to broaden VR market pentration ($99 black fridays, etc.), you've identified the WTF with rift 2. Inside out is great for quest, but why, if your already tethered to a PC, given the difference in quality and precision, would you go inside out? Cost. I don't buy the convenience argument, not when the setup difference is literally 5 minutes. LH's don't even take up a USB port, just wall AC, and the difference is night and day. From the pc games preview (not my preferred source, but its a good quote):

 

They’re also more accurate, in order to be able to fully realise the extra motion the controllers afford you. To that end each base station has fixed lasers which will sweep the room 100 times every second, and will do so with sub-millimetre precision to capture every gesture.

 

Sub-millimeter. Smaller than a millimetre. That’s frickin’ precise.

 

Or PC World

 

as far as tracking goes, the Vive/Index base stations are the gold standard. The original generation was near-flawless. The second generation might actually be flawless, with a wider field of view both horizontally and vertically. They cover an enormous area, and they do it well. There’s not much else to say.

 

To answer your second question- I don't see it confirmed anywhere but from the past one should work fine for sitting but two is better. This is particularly true if you decide to play anything else that uses knuckles. Going to more than two won't improve tracking but will expand the size of your play area (up to 10m x 10m).

 

All that said, while I am firmly on the Index bandwagon, I'd probably wait a couple weeks until we have them, DCS' VR "50% performance increase" is out, and you have first hand reports from people with like interest. Reverb has the pixel advantage, which if you have the pc to power it in DCS (2080ti) might outweigh the FOV, edge to edge clarity, comfort (both ergos but also eye strain for long play sessions), sound, and obviously the refresh rate/latency (an underestimated factor in the clarity of a moving screen, regardless of drawn FPS). From my perspective, once clarity hits the ability to read mfd without zooming threshold, sweet spot and FOV become more important. I don't want to move my head to focus on airspeed gauge in the F14, I want a big FOV that I can glance down with my eyes, keeping my head up outside the cockpit. Again though, this is all speculation, we'll know soon enough.

 

If you're interested in further reading in the meantime, Ars posted an updated "one week with the Index" that's quite fair, and an apparently very stoned Brian Lindenhof (climey dev)

on the index vs. rift s and WMR (not reverb).

 

Two other comments - I thought I caught word that a native WMR solution was in the works for DCS, that might improve the experience substantially. Won't improve tracking, but better than the steamVR bridge.

 

And second, DCS might have some launch issues with Index, hopefully it will be worked out (else pitchforks), but in a different video Brian mentioned he had trouble with

, and I've heard a few other rumblings. Given the popularity of Index ED has strong incentive to fix the problem, if there even is a problem. But perhaps another reason to wait on real reviews

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Index is inside out tracking as well... base stations have lasers inside that project a invisible (to the human eye) grid into your room. The headset sees this grid and it uses it to make precise calculations of your movements, as opposed to say WMR which sees your furniture only and has to go off that. The tracking is spot on with no issues.

 

 

I dont think it is as simple as this, as the optronic sensors on the index (or vive, for that nmatter) are not imaging cameras. There may be an element of "inside-out" but there is also complex sensing and timing of the laser as it sweeps across the sensors, calcuated against the known position of the laser vs time. I think there are even accelerometers to add to the system as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The tracking on the Index is very precise. I have never specifically looked at it to quantify it but it is better say, than the original Rift, Vive Pro or Rift S.

 

That said, the head mounted tracking of the Rift S (which does not use tracking bases/sensors outside the headset) is roughly 95 to 99% as good. I have never noticed any but the slightest of problems when I throw my hand behind my head in a game like Robo Recall.

 

Yeah I have been having another go with Robo Recall since getting my Rift S, and have not had any tracking issues so far playing the game.

Tracking has been good for me.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks sk000tch for the big write-up - very informational! And thanks to the others for your inputs as well.

 

On the Steam site it says that they are back-ordered until 30 Sep. I'll take your advice and wait a little bit to see how it integrates with DCS and with the VR improvements. Then I'll have two things to look forward to in the fall: Index and the F-16 :)

i7-7700k OC'd to 5.0 GHz, ASUS 1080ti OC, 32 GB 3200 MHz G.Skill, Samsung 960 pro M.2, Thrustmaster Warthog, Saitek pedals, Valve Index HMD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think it is as simple as this, as the optronic sensors on the index (or vive, for that nmatter) are not imaging cameras. There may be an element of "inside-out" but there is also complex sensing and timing of the laser as it sweeps across the sensors, calcuated against the known position of the laser vs time. I think there are even accelerometers to add to the system as well.

 

Yes, but thats all being done by the headset, the headset is using the lasers and the timing of their pulses to calculate where it is realitive to the base stations. The base stations are not tracking anything "outside in", like for example the oculus rift cv1 cameras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your problem isn't so much from inside-out tracking, but rather the tracking specifically of WMR. Rift S uses the same method but with better algorithms gets pretty solid tracking. In fact compared to my original CV1Rift, I would say the Rift S tracking is just as good and even better in some areas of the room where camera coverage was spotty.

 

The major downsides to inside-out tracking though are: Dark or featureless rooms, and controller occlusion. The Index, while still inside-out, gets around the first problem because the lighthouse stations provide IR beacons that can be seen in pure darkness.

Intel i7-4770k @ 4.4ghz, 32gb ram, GTX 1080ti, Oculus Rift S

 

Advanced apologies if my post contains typos or missing letters. Many of my posts are typed on a laptop with an old keyboard that has a personality all its own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other thing that most people will not realize is not about the tracking system, but the importance of mechanical IPD adjustment.

 

Below is an article from Palmer Luckey himself, who states that the Rift S will only work for 70% of the population (other headsets with fixed IPD screens would also apply).

 

http://palmerluckey.com/i-cant-use-rift-s-and-neither-can-you/

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have both the original Rift and the Rift S.

 

My original Rift never lost track. Once I started a game and set my initial calibrated reference position, I had flawless tracking.

 

The Rift S tracking is pretty good, too. But sometimes, it randomly shifts to an offset forward and left of where my head is. All I have to do is put my head back in the default position and hit the appropriate calibration key, but I never, ever had this happen with the Rift and its two sensors once the sensors were set up correctly.

 

The Rift S also periodically forgets its guard zone settings as if I had plugged it in for the first time. I have to stop and set the floor level and safety boundaries before I can go any further.

 

But there are always tradeoffs: with the Rift S, I don't have to tie up so many USB ports or worry about the sensors moving from their calibrated positions. Setting up the safety boundaries is also much quicker/easier then the original Rift. If I could combine the best features of both, it would be a pretty good headset for the current tech generation.

 

The graphics are so much better with the Rift S, that I am probably going to stick with it over the original Rift. Pass-through vision is also a fantastic benefit of the inside out tracking system.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but thats all being done by the headset, the headset is using the lasers and the timing of their pulses to calculate where it is realitive to the base stations. The base stations are not tracking anything "outside in", like for example the oculus rift cv1 cameras.

 

As a distinciton of tracking method, that certainly falls into what "outside-in" is. Lasers come from OUTside, INto the headset.

 

With WMR, for example, cameras INside, the headset look OUTwards.

 

Its just a marketting term for "needs basestations" not a technical term for a specific method, it doesnt have to be 100% technically accurate in all contexts, and it doesnt mean that there is nothing in the headset looking outwards, its just the name for the category that happened to form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a tech subforum for enthusiasts pushing the envelope in an niche simulation, were all fairly educated or we wouldn't have made it past the 670 page A10 manual.

 

Yes we're speaking technically, screw marketing BS. There is no outside tracking being done by the lighthouses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...