Harrier CAS page update

QuiGon

Uhm, that's not CAS then, but a classic strike mission. CAS is always a dynamic situation, as you support troops on the ground that are in contact with the enemy. Such situations are way too dynamic to be programmed before you climb into the cockpit.

CAS can be both pre-planned and dynamic/on-call. In a preplanned situation you may have preplanned 9-lines (attack briefs) that the JTAC can use to expedite an attack near a known static target such as a machine gun nest, or from a known target reference point or geographical reference point.

Fri13

You do not need to receive 9-ball or anything over radio, as JTAC can send the targets over datalink to your computer, and you get to see what there is. [...]

 

In fast moments there is no time for JTAC or anything like that. You have radio contact with the troops on the ground and they talk directly to you what they see, where they are, where enemy is etc. In case of difficulties own troops use smoke grenades to create a visual landmarks that you can easily then spot, like red smoke to their rear side and green smoke to toward enemy (or smoke the enemy position). And then you can easily find where own troops are and on what direction from that position the enemy is etc. No need to tell any coordinates or like. But it requires that pilot has visual contact with the area and not flying 20nm from them and trying to get a JDAM or JSOW there. So that method doesn't work when a B-52 is giving close air support, as then you definitely require a coordinates and all. [...]

 

Anyways you are not going to bomb a position that you do not see, or you have not accurately confirmed that you can drop something without visual confirmation. [...]

 

That is the point of the CAS, that you take your eyes out of the cockpit and you look out that what is happening on the ground and you fight among the ground troops but with just better viewpoint.

Basically nothing you've posted here is accurate with regard to close air support. 9-line attack briefs are the standard from which to deviate, and there are different types of control and methods of attack for the situations you're describing. Granted, the briefs you hear on YouTube videos don't always sound like rigid line by line briefs, but even informal attack briefs that are given out of order in extremis are following the general flow of a 9-line or the pilots are mentally checking off the minimum required items from that list in order to safely execute an attack without causing fratricide.

There are even plenty of instances of close air support where you are bombing things you don't see with your own eyes. Types 2 and 3 CAS under "Bomb on Coordinate" method of attack don't require the pilot to see the target at all - they could hypothetically employ through a cloud layer, at night with no goggles, or lofting an LGB much further than you could see with your own eyes to be hosted by another aircraft or ground unit who does have eyes on lasing. You never even have to see friendlies.

In all cases, even those where the pilot would be head up looking out the cockpit, certain contracts need to be followed to ensure bombs aren't erroneously impacting friendlies you may not necessarily be able to pick out from a fixed-wing perspective.

LastRifleRound

The CAS page is multipurpose.

1) It will show you briefed items passed to your aircraft over the ATHS datalink.

2) It can store preplanned attack briefs to recall during a mission.

3) It lets you manually enter attack brief information that you receive over radio. Think of it in this sense as a notepad that lets you record the information passed over voice and read it back accurately. Lines 4, 6, and restrictions are mandatory readback items to a JTAC after being briefed, so it's important to have that information readily accessible.

4) When it's fully integrated, items on the selected CAS brief such as the Ingress Point (IP), target, and briefed final attack headings, etc. will appear on your EHSD to help the pilot visually maneuver the aircraft to support the attack.

Folks, check the first post to see the ATHS/CAS and F10 Map updates that are now being tested.

:thumbup: looking forward to it, thanks.

So my question is this: how do you plan on using the page? I'm genuinely interested to know what your approach would be

Not by staring the CAS page and thinking that because I have there the information that I can just follow the bomb line to drop bombs without understanding what is happening on the ground and adjusting to that.

As I said, the CAS page gives very easy way to get coordinates and other information to start and check. But it is just that.

Basically nothing you've posted here is accurate with regard to close air support.

Nothing you post counters anything that I have said.

Don't try to YouTube me.... That was your final mistake.

Nothing you post counters anything that I have said.

 

Don't try to YouTube me.... That was your final mistake.

Go away... He actually knows what he's talking about :music_whistling:

Not by staring the CAS page and thinking that because I have there the information that I can just follow the bomb line to drop bombs without understanding what is happening on the ground and adjusting to that.

 

As I said, the CAS page gives very easy way to get coordinates and other information to start and check. But it is just that.

Everything in the Situation Update and subsequent 9-line is intended to make the pilot understand what is happening on the ground without necessarily having to see it with their own eyes. Yes, the situation can change between the attack brief being passed and the aircraft rolling in, and for those situations exceptions may be passed. Yes, the pilots aren't always working with qualified JTACs, and for those situatuons there is more onus on the pilots to pull the necessary information from the ground unit to mitigate risk to friendlies. But both of those situations are considered fairly varsity and the pilots need to begin with brilliance in the basics before they may consider themselves prepared to deal with highly situational problems like that.

CAS is a lot broader in scope than you seem to think it is. If you want to actually learn what it entails, cracking open an old JP 3-09.3 is a good place to start. Especially some of the vignettes at the tail end of the pub that specifically go over situations where the pilots can't see the targets with their own eyes.

The stuff you seem to be describing is more akin to only a narrow subset of CAS (Type 1 Bomb on Target), which is a much more common method for helicopters and may also use a friendly-centric rotary-wing 5-line or Close Combat Attack (CCA) brief. This isn't representative of all CAS. This is merely 1 of 6 options that may be used dependent on which option is best suited for the job.

CAS

Uhm, that's not CAS then, but a classic strike mission. CAS is always a dynamic situation, as you support troops on the ground that are in contact with the enemy. Such situations are way too dynamic to be programmed before you climb into the cockpit.

The A-10C Warthog style xCAS is a special form where ad-hoc CAS is required by troops in contact and "available" or patrolling assets react on an urgent request.

A Strike is typically not coordinated by a JTAC or any ground forces.

Nothing you post counters anything that I have said.

 

 

 

Don't try to YouTube me.... That was your final mistake.

LastRifleRound

 

The CAS page is multipurpose.

 

1) It will show you briefed items passed to your aircraft over the ATHS datalink.

 

2) It can store preplanned attack briefs to recall during a mission.

 

3) It lets you manually enter attack brief information that you receive over radio. Think of it in this sense as a notepad that lets you record the information passed over voice and read it back accurately. Lines 4, 6, and restrictions are mandatory readback items to a JTAC after being briefed, so it's important to have that information readily accessible.

 

4) When it's fully integrated, items on the selected CAS brief such as the Ingress Point (IP), target, and briefed final attack headings, etc. will appear on your EHSD to help the pilot visually maneuver the aircraft to support the attack.

Thanks for this. Especially #4. With this symbology on the EHSD, I can see how this would enhance SA. Is this going to be implemented, though? I don't recall seeing that in the works anywhere.

Can I script the CAS page entries through the Mission Editor or by way of do-scriptfile?

Can I script the CAS page entries through the Mission Editor or by way of do-scriptfile?

I would love this to be possible so we can set up JTAC missions for the Harrier.

You can add the F10 map target markers with the mission editor so that all you have to do is RALT+RSHIFT+8 to download them once you are running the mission.

Can map markers be hidden in the mission until a certain trigger?

Can map markers be hidden in the mission until a certain trigger?

Everything in the Situation Update and subsequent 9-line is intended to make the pilot understand what is happening on the ground without necessarily having to see it with their own eyes. Yes, the situation can change between the attack brief being passed and the aircraft rolling in, and for those situations exceptions may be passed. Yes, the pilots aren't always working with qualified JTACs, and for those situatuons there is more onus on the pilots to pull the necessary information from the ground unit to mitigate risk to friendlies. But both of those situations are considered fairly varsity and the pilots need to begin with brilliance in the basics before they may consider themselves prepared to deal with highly situational problems like that.

 

CAS is a lot broader in scope than you seem to think it is. If you want to actually learn what it entails, cracking open an old JP 3-09.3 is a good place to start. Especially some of the vignettes at the tail end of the pub that specifically go over situations where the pilots can't see the targets with their own eyes.

 

The stuff you seem to be describing is more akin to only a narrow subset of CAS (Type 1 Bomb on Target), which is a much more common method for helicopters and may also use a friendly-centric rotary-wing 5-line or Close Combat Attack (CCA) brief. This isn't representative of all CAS. This is merely 1 of 6 options that may be used dependent on which option is best suited for the job.

For fixed wing western CAS, Type 2 Bomb on Coordinate with a JDAM is probly the 90-95% solution over the last...5-10 years or more. You can do CAS of that variety without ever getting a sensor (eyeball or TPOD) on the target if needed (although its definitely preferred).

Hell even if you find the target in the TPOD, normally you read the coordinates off the TPOD to the JTAC, he then reads back the exact same coordinates to you so you can do it type 2 Bomb on Coordinate...

No but you can create them during mission either by using a "time more" condition, or more elaborate by conditions based on position (zone), etc. look for the "mark to" actions, to create markpoints.

I got this working tonight! Thanks. Still need to import using the keyboard combo... in the future it would be great to have a datalink message pop up for you to accept the cas brief.

I got this working tonight! Thanks. Still need to import using the keyboard combo... in the future it would be great to have a datalink message pop up for you to accept the cas brief.

Could You please attach a mission file ?

I have managed to generate target points using the mission editor with the names T00, T01, T02, T03... - using trigger points -> Once - Time more than 5 sec -> "Mark to group".

But using Ralt+Rshift+8 does not transfer them into the CAS page.

Using the F10 map works fine though.

Could You please attach a mission file ?

I have managed to generate target points using the mission editor with the names T00, T01, T02, T03... - using trigger points -> Once - Time more than 5 sec -> "Mark to group".

 

But using Ralt+Rshift+8 does not transfer them into the CAS page.

 

Using the F10 map works fine though.

Miz file attached.

I don't know if this was necessary for it to work, but I had different timings for different mark points creating, instead of all at once. Maybe that helped? I also used Mark To Coalition.

AV8B anti-infantry cas.miz

Miz file attached.

 

 

I don't know if this was necessary for it to work, but I had different timings for different mark points creating, instead of all at once. Maybe that helped? I also used Mark To Coalition.

Thanks alot for the example.

Now it works for me too :)

I triggered all 4 target marks at once - so no need for seperate timings.

Why can't the in-game dedicated JTAC send the info? Why are they coding it to have to mess around with the F10 map??

Works well for the A-10.

Why can't the in-game dedicated JTAC send the info? Why are they coding it to have to mess around with the F10 map??

 

 

 

Works well for the A-10.

Guys just a little tip for those of us in VR.

In Voice Attack i have entered "Prepare target 1". "Prepare target 2" etc and this then types on the markpoint tag T01, T02 etc - its saves me alot of time and also on Multiplayer mission planning its super convenient not having to reach for the keyboard and peak underneath the Rift S to start typing.

Also i keybinded the left MFD buttons 12/13 from memory to "waypoint up", Waypoint down" again just means don't have to start using the mouse when flying competitively as i tend to need to be more Hotas in the harrier than other modules.

Obviously buy Voice Attack if haven't already done so its a real game changer, don't need viacomm its easy to make your own profiles plus have found remember them better!

Anyway just a little tip may help some who haven't thought about or know about voice attack,

Guys just a little tip for those of us in VR.

 

In Voice Attack i have entered "Prepare target 1". "Prepare target 2" etc and this then types on the markpoint tag T01, T02 etc - its saves me alot of time and also on Multiplayer mission planning its super convenient not having to reach for the keyboard and peak underneath the Rift S to start typing.

 

Also i keybinded the left MFD buttons 12/13 from memory to "waypoint up", Waypoint down" again just means don't have to start using the mouse when flying competitively as i tend to need to be more Hotas in the harrier than other modules.

 

Obviously buy Voice Attack if haven't already done so its a real game changer, don't need viacomm its easy to make your own profiles plus have found remember them better!

 

Anyway just a little tip may help some who haven't thought about or know about voice attack,

No need to bind waypoint up/down, the existing HOTAS button Waypoint Increment is plenty for this task without deviating from realistic bindings :thumbup:

There really isn't a good reason the in-game JTAC shouldn't also work with the Harrier, or Hornet for that matter.

The procedures are the same (by design, it's a NATO standard). The JTAC should be able to provide a grid coordinate in whichever format the aircraft takes (and the Harrier ought to be able to enter MGRS/GRID anyway). The technical differences between the datalinks (SADL vs. ATHS) are mostly transparent to the player, since both should be able to transmit and receive a digital attack brief.