J-11B with PL12

Buddy, I suggest you look at your own post, calm down, and realize that we arent against you, nor are we against FCE, or russian A/C, etc. Calling people who share different opinions "poison" will get you nowhere. Yes we demand realism because thats the goal of DCS. Would you be behaving the same way if we demanded AIM-120Ds, and AESA radars for blue using your standard of evidence? I dont think so. Its not because of us ED removed the MiG-29 DL, it was for realism. Period. Again, please calm down, nobody here is attacking you.

I`m calm as a python. I`m merelly describing your input to the matter. There is a way to mod server and make sure only mod made by server is the one being used by clients. It`s still IC protected server. You don`t have to download any mod to play there. Something that should be implemented years ago. The story is there to justify this mod. You say it`s impossible for China to modify russian jets lol. Are you hearing yourself? That`s how they roll man. For deckades now. And it`s a given fact that vanilla FC3 Redfor planes will stay the way they are. What is your concern exactly?

You say it`s impossible for China to modify russian jets lol.

Mind quoting where exactly I said that?

But w/e im done with this thread, its pretty pointless. If you want to mod your game go right ahead. Theres a good reason its gonna stay exactly that: a mod

More like unrealistic redfor? Honestly if ED would just fix basic bugs like the chaff bug the Flanker would be far more effective

Will this one do?

Can i take your last post as a yes to this Chinese upgrade possibility for all Red planes as a realistic as it actualy is irl ? Credible enough plot for the Servers with rearmed REDFOR fighters?

SD-10s are unrealistic for a J-11A. Period. However much you deny it. "Reaming" red planes with the SD-10 is unrealistic, unless you have evidence that the J-11A was compatible with the SD-10 (simply showing a pic of it on the jet isnt enough, there are pics of ETs on Flanker belly stations, that doesnt mean it is capable of being used there). Its that simple. I never denied that China could mod Russian jets, thats literally what the J-11B is.

SD-10s on J-11As, however, werent one of those mods.

Whatever other accusations/insults you wanna throw around idc. The above point still stands.

SD-10s are unrealistic for a J-11A. Period. However much you deny it. "Reaming" red planes with the SD-10 is unrealistic, unless you have evidence that the J-11A was compatible with the SD-10 (simply showing a pic of it on the jet isnt enough, there are pics of ETs on Flanker belly stations, that doesnt mean it is capable of being used there). Its that simple. I never denied that China could mod Russian jets, thats literally what the J-11B is.

 

SD-10s on J-11As, however, werent one of those mods.

 

 

Whatever other accusations/insults you wanna throw around idc. The above point still stands.

Well. Good enough for me.Can they do it? They can. Your "unrealistic" mantra doesn`t change that or makes it less possible. After all it`s not about what actually happened. It`s about what potentially could happen. You are against that i get it. You just don`t want this to happen. To have fun with what others consider plausible scenario. And if those jets will be renamed to their respective PL12 carrying variants then it will be even more fun to fly them and splash them.

I never intended to insult anybody. Phrase "You are a poison, not a medicine" is not i insult it`s a metaphore that describes the negative outcome of such attitude. You`re too stiff to have fun with it i guess.

Well. Good enough for me.Can they do it? They can. Your "unrealistic" mantra doesn`t change that or makes it less possible. After all it`s not about what actually happened. It`s about what potentially could happen. You are against that i get it. You just don`t want this to happen. To have fun with what others consider plausible scenario. And if those jets will be renamed to their respective PL12 carrying variants then it will be even more fun to fly them and splash them.

I never intended to insult anybody. Phrase "You are a poison, not a medicine" is not i insult it`s a metaphore that describes the negative outcome of such attitude. You`re too stiff to have fun with it i guess.

There is a huge difference between modifying a plane you built yourself with your own avionics with no license agreement, and building a plane under a license agreement. I think you under estimate how strict license agreements are.

What happened when India was disappointed with R-77 range after balakot strikes and asked Russia if they could add I-derby to plane built in India? Surprise surprise Russia said no, and then promptly sold them hundreds of Russian made missiles.

If license agreements were not limiting, they would be no reason to make a J-11B or J-15 with all indigenous equipment. So basically just becuase J-15 and J-11B exist, does not mean they could do the same to J-11A, where they are restricted by a license agreement and the fact that it’s all Russian avionics doesn’t even use the same data bus as Chinese missiles and equipment(MIL STD 1760), and even if it did have the right data bus there’s no getting past the limit of avionics from another country.

So what have they proven to dowith J-11A when it comes to modifications? They have added R-77 and MFI-55, two pieces of RUSSIAN equipment. Unless you can find a photo or any other evidence other then “can they do it? Sure they can. Good enough for me,” then that is the only two examples of J-11A being modified and with only Russian equipment!

So sorry, realism still applies. The existence of J-11B and J-15 does not make the restrictions of license built J-11A disappear. Proof of those two planes does not make it true for the other.

In addition, just becuase they “can” with J-11B and J-15, does not mean they could turn a J-11A into a J-11B or J-15. Replacing all the avionics, radios, radar, data buses, you might as well build a new plane. Which is exactly what they did, build a new plane without a license agreement, a plane that is not J-11A, but literally only shares the same basic airframe, with even cockpits being entirely different.

So yes these limitations are realistic, but if you have a photo or an article that says otherwise of course we would be open to it. But just looking at articles on J-11B or the wiki of J-15 is not going to convince anyone the same thing is possible with J-11A. Otherwise they wouldn’t have built a new plane with entirely different insides and called it J-11B, would they?

So please, we are not attacking your server or the fun you have on it, just defending the very good reasons it’s not that way in game, reasons that are 99% likely to never change since I don’t think they even operate J-11A anymore!!

I have written more then I intended, but basically I’m going to try and stop convincing you. If you can’t believe that license agreements and avionics have specific restrictions and choose to believe they can do same thing as J-11B or J-15 to J-11A, then I don’t think any of us here will be able to convince you.

No one blames you for enjoying a what if server, but you won’t go far by saying we are “too stiff to have fun with it” and trying to convince us the game should be a “what if” for everyone who fights J-11A. It’s a mod, no harm in enjoying it, and while I won’t try to put down the fun you have in it, I hope you realize how counter productive it is to also say we should not have fun with realism, no one decides the fun of another person. But I know if I’m playing on a MP PVP sever on vanilla install we probably share a love of realism to some degree, and if we want to mod for “what if” we can, but I would never ever call them out for not enjoying fun just becuase they don’t enjoy realism as much as me. No one decides the fun of another, and I hope you realize that us that are opposed to J-11A having PL-12 in regular game install for everyone on the basis of realism, is not becuase we do not enjoy fun, or are too stiff, or that we “don’t get it.” We are just playing by the same rules all the other modules have.

If there’s actual evidence other then Wikipedia entries for J-11B and J-15, we will be open to it, but things aren’t going to change unless there is evidence for J-11A specifically. And to be honest, I trust Deka on this even if I hadn’t been doing years and years of research on Chinese and Russian planes becuase I love them. As far as I can tell R-77 and MFI-55 Is only additions for J-11A, and I only know about those becuase of Deka in the first place, I think they have the most knowledge to say one way or the other, and they have made it clear it never got Chinese missiles, and J-11b is required for indigenous weapons. So if you don’t want to trust me or Dundun, you can trust Deka

There is a huge difference between modifying a plane you built yourself with your own avionics with no license agreement, and building a plane under a license agreement. I think you under estimate how strict license agreements are.

 

What happened when India was disappointed with R-77 range after balakot strikes and asked Russia if they could add I-derby to plane built in India? Surprise surprise Russia said no, and then promptly sold them hundreds of Russian made missiles.

 

If license agreements were not limiting, they would be no reason to make a J-11B or J-15 with all indigenous equipment. So basically just becuase J-15 and J-11B exist, does not mean they could do the same to J-11A, where they are restricted by a license agreement and the fact that it’s all Russian avionics doesn’t even use the same data bus as Chinese missiles and equipment(MIL STD 1760), and even if it did have the right data bus there’s no getting past the limit of avionics from another country.

 

So what have they proven to dowith J-11A when it comes to modifications? They have added R-77 and MFI-55, two pieces of RUSSIAN equipment. Unless you can find a photo or any other evidence other then “can they do it? Sure they can. Good enough for me,” then that is the only two examples of J-11A being modified and with only Russian equipment!

 

So sorry, realism still applies. The existence of J-11B and J-15 does not make the restrictions of license built J-11A disappear. Proof of those two planes does not make it true for the other.

 

In addition, just becuase they “can” with J-11B and J-15, does not mean they could turn a J-11A into a J-11B or J-15. Replacing all the avionics, radios, radar, data buses, you might as well build a new plane. Which is exactly what they did, build a new plane without a license agreement, a plane that is not J-11A, but literally only shares the same basic airframe, with even cockpits being entirely different.

 

So yes these limitations are realistic, but if you have a photo or an article that says otherwise of course we would be open to it. But just looking at articles on J-11B or the wiki of J-15 is not going to convince anyone the same thing is possible with J-11A. Otherwise they wouldn’t have built a new plane with entirely different insides and called it J-11B, would they?

 

So please, we are not attacking your server or the fun you have on it, just defending the very good reasons it’s not that way in game, reasons that are 99% likely to never change since I don’t think they even operate J-11A anymore!!

 

I have written more then I intended, but basically I’m going to try and stop convincing you. If you can’t believe that license agreements and avionics have specific restrictions and choose to believe they can do same thing as J-11B or J-15 to J-11A, then I don’t think any of us here will be able to convince you.

 

No one blames you for enjoying a what if server, but you won’t go far by saying we are “too stiff to have fun with it” and trying to convince us the game should be a “what if” for everyone who fights J-11A. It’s a mod, no harm in enjoying it, and while I won’t try to put down the fun you have in it, I hope you realize how counter productive it is to also say we should not have fun with realism, no one decides the fun of another person. But I know if I’m playing on a MP PVP sever on vanilla install we probably share a love of realism to some degree, and if we want to mod for “what if” we can, but I would never ever call them out for not enjoying fun just becuase they don’t enjoy realism as much as me. No one decides the fun of another, and I hope you realize that us that are opposed to J-11A having PL-12 in regular game install for everyone on the basis of realism, is not becuase we do not enjoy fun, or are too stiff, or that we “don’t get it.” We are just playing by the same rules all the other modules have.

 

If there’s actual evidence other then Wikipedia entries for J-11B and J-15, we will be open to it, but things aren’t going to change unless there is evidence for J-11A specifically. And to be honest, I trust Deka on this even if I hadn’t been doing years and years of research on Chinese and Russian planes becuase I love them. As far as I can tell R-77 and MFI-55 Is only additions for J-11A, and I only know about those becuase of Deka in the first place, I think they have the most knowledge to say one way or the other, and they have made it clear it never got Chinese missiles, and J-11b is required for indigenous weapons. So if you don’t want to trust me or Dundun, you can trust Deka

Again it`s a fictional scenario where Sino-Russian military cooperation reached new level in formed alliance agaist NATO and those mutual upgrades both for Chinese Air defence systems and Russian air to air capabilities. And we all know how fast all those license limitations and bureaucratic obstacles get overriten in a matter of days when it comes to matters of state survival. Are there techicalities to that? Ofcourse. Is it doable in those circumstances? Ofcourse it is. Again as a FICTIONAL scenario it makes perfect sence))) Take it easy) Cheers!

Again it`s a fictional scenario where Sino-Russian military cooperation reached new level in formed alliance agaist NATO and those mutual upgrades both for Chinese Air defence systems and Russian air to air capabilities. And we all know how fast all those license limitations and bureaucratic obstacles get overriten in a matter of days when it comes to matters of state survival. Are there techicalities to that? Ofcourse. Is it doable in those circumstances? Ofcourse it is. Again as a FICTIONAL scenario it makes perfect sence))) Take it easy) Cheers!

Yeah that’s fine for that modded server, not one single post in this thread is stating it’s wrong for you to enjoy that server. It’s a good use of modding to create said situation.

All we are saying is, since you also keep saying that such a mod to be enabled in the base game for everyone in every server because you believe it realistic for J-11A, to quote what Snoopy Said in an A-10 thread, all we are saying is “I’ll leave that unrealistic request to you then.”

Yeah that’s fine for that modded server, not one single post in this thread is stating it’s wrong for you to enjoy that server. It’s a good use of modding to create said situation.

 

All we are saying is, since you also keep saying that such a mod to be enabled in the base game for everyone in every server because you believe it realistic for J-11A, to quote what Snoopy Said in an A-10 thread, all we are saying is “I’ll leave that unrealistic request to you then.”

You got me wrong man. I said that ability to modify stuff on server side and stay IC clean should be implemented. To have controll from server side on what can and can`t be used there. That would be great thing to have and would allow for more servers with cool mods implemented whithout turning that kind of server into sandbox. Wright now IC option either on or off with no extra options available to modify server in a controlled predictable manner.

You got me wrong man. I said that ability to modify stuff on server side and stay IC clean should be implemented. To have controll from server side on what can and can`t be used there. That would be great thing to have and would allow for more servers with cool mods implemented whithout turning that kind of server into sandbox. Wright now IC option either on or off with no extra options available to modify server in a controlled predictable manner.

If thats what youve been asking for I 100% agree, server owners should be able to determine what does and does not pass IC, that wasnt what we were arguing.

If thats what youve been asking for I 100% agree, server owners should be able to determine what does and does not pass IC, that wasnt what we were arguing.

Luckily this mod keeps server IC protected. So that PL12/SD10 on Russian and Chinese planes is the only thing implemented there. Hopefully it will be possible to modify messaging system soon so that it would allow For J11B and J15 names in kill feeds among other places. Not to break immersion)

Since we`re not ever getting those jets from "factory" we might as well have fun with diy mockups of them.

Since we`re not ever getting those jets from "factory" we might as well have fun with diy mockups of them.

I agree with having fun with DIY mock-ups, to see for example what Flanker aerodynamics can achieve combined with a competitive Fox 3. But for me the experience of flying low fidelity modules is becoming more frustrating. Adding very powerful weapons just highlights the other issues even more: useless radar detection ranges, made even worse by jamming, clunky controls, no usable TWS or even SAM style mode, lack of fine controls and low immersion due to fidelity. It's a real shame but the mod is not really a solution for me.

I agree with having fun with DIY mock-ups, to see for example what Flanker aerodynamics can achieve combined with a competitive Fox 3. But for me the experience of flying low fidelity modules is becoming more frustrating. Adding very powerful weapons just highlights the other issues even more: useless radar detection ranges, made even worse by jamming, clunky controls, no usable TWS or even SAM style mode, lack of fine controls and low immersion due to fidelity. It's a real shame but the mod is not really a solution for me.

I tested SU33 and SU27with hot A10A target at 2 km coaltitude.

their own N-001 radar detects it at130 km and locks at 115 km

SU30s N-011M radar detects at 100km and locks at 93 km

JF-17s KLJ - 7 radar detects at 136km and locks at 118km

Mig29S N-019M radar detects at 88 km and locks at 76 km

Su-30 in DCS is fitted with N-001

Su-30 in DCS is fitted with N-001

I`m talking about AI plane. Check for yourself. You`ll see it.

AI Su-30 in the game is the basic Su-30 (previously named Su-27PU) with N001

AI Su-30 in the game is the basic Su-30 (previously named Su-27PU) with N001

Look in it`s entry file. it`s there saying RADAR ="N-011M",

Look in it`s entry file. it`s there saying RADAR ="N-011M",

And F-14 file says APG-71 or atleast used to;)

N-011M is used on 30MKI and 30MKM, both have canards and manufactured by Irkut. The model in DCS without canards, and I believe could have been made by KnAAPO, there was a thread a while ago saying it shows physical characteristics of not just PU but some other variant, so it could easily by a “Frankenstein,” a relic from when lock on played fast and loose with Flanker variants:)

And F-14 file says APG-71 or atleast used to;)

 

N-011M is used on 30MKI and 30MKM, both have canards and manufactured by Irkut. The model in DCS without canards, and I believe could have been made by KnAAPO, there was a thread a while ago saying it shows physical characteristics of not just PU but some other variant, so it could easily by a “Frankenstein,” a relic from when lock on played fast and loose with Flanker variants:)

Shouldn`t N-011M perform better than N-001?

Shouldn`t N-011M perform better than N-001?

Yes it should. But that doesn’t necessarily mean DCS is completely off when it’s quite clear it’s an early Su-30 with N-001, and the N-011M LUA designation could be just as wrong as APG-71 on F-14 LUA file.

It’s honestly pretty random and out there that it even says Bars, it’s very clear it’s supposed to be N-001. It’s not like Bars is candy, it’s a pretty rare system only seen in N-011M platform on those two variants MKI and MKM, which as I mentioned becuase of canards, can’t really be mistaken for the canardless Su-30 in DCS...

I mean it can even carry R-27ET on intake stations, it’s hardly the same standard of accuracy we expect and pretty much unchanged since its introduction, here Alfa pretty much explains it was originally supposed to be PU with multicrole upgrade at one point to KN standard, so outside of the Bars in LUA it’s a real variant https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=211504

The coder probably thought, “I want to make MKI eventually, so I will put Bars in LUA as placeholder name with N-001 performance for now. yay”

Look in it`s entry file. it`s there saying RADAR ="N-011M",

Its a mistake

I tested SU33 and SU27with hot A10A target at 2 km coaltitude.

their own N-001 radar detects it at130 km and locks at 115 km

SU30s N-011M radar detects at 100km and locks at 93 km

JF-17s KLJ - 7 radar detects at 136km and locks at 118km

Mig29S N-019M radar detects at 88 km and locks at 76 km

I find this hard to believe, maybe A-10A just has a huge radar cross-section. Against fighters even at high altitude lock much beyond 50km is difficult in my experience.

And this is ignoring jamming. With the ranges of a typical high altitude AIM-120C vs SD-10 fight, you're almost at MAR before you can burn through and your opponent doesn't suffer the same in return.

And you are giving people lock warnings because you can't fire in TWS.

I find this hard to believe, maybe A-10A just has a huge radar cross-section. Against fighters even at high altitude lock much beyond 50km is difficult in my experience.

 

And this is ignoring jamming. With the ranges of a typical high altitude AIM-120C vs SD-10 fight, you're almost at MAR before you can burn through and your opponent doesn't suffer the same in return.

 

And you are giving people lock warnings because you can't fire in TWS.

Easy to check for yourself i tested on flatlands at the southern part of Caucasus map where Turkish coastal line would be.

A-10 has second biggest RCS in DCS, 10 meters, JF-17 has 3.

I don’t know what anyone is trying to prove, but of flyable planes only Mi-8 has greater RCS

Su-30KNs were the old Indian Su-30Ks if I'm not mistaken that would probably mean Irkut production not KnAAZ

Speaking of two seat flankers how about a Su-30MKK?

I'd like deka's opinion on making it either FF or MAC grade