Hawk T2

In the recent GR interview Simon revealed that ED were potentially looking developing the hawk T2 for DCS. The other suggestion was to redo the hawk T1. Personally I don't think it makes sense to re-make the T1 since it doesn't do anything that can't already be done in the C101 or L39. He also mentioned that there was an issue with players not having an engaging option of aircraft to fly to start off with as the only options are the overwhelming and confusing low fidelity russian Su-25t and the unarmed and therefore boring TF-51D. I think that the Hawk T2 could be a perfect candidate for a new free module to introduce players to DCS.

The hawk T2 can do all mission types carried out by fast jets such as A/A bvr, bfm and A/G missions. It is built as a trainer so its simple yet has modern avionics that would familiarise new players with systems like western HUDs and MFDs. It is built to be conventional and easy to fly with the FCS like the hornet or F-16 that most players are interested in. The rear-seat instructor can also add and remove targets from the back seat meaning that it would be ideal for squadrons to use to teach and train new pilots, similar to its purpose in real life. Current trainer aircraft available in DCS are not very suitable for training pilots onto the hornet or viper since their avionics are either simple, outdated or both and don't have any systems like FCS in common with the popular aircraft such as hornet or viper.

Introducing a new player to DCS in the first few hours of the game, an AI pre-scripted instructor in pre-made tutorials to talk to the new player and introduce them to and talk-through different types of threats and missions in DCS, while adding them into the synthetic system from the backseat. I would much prefer this to my experience of my first few hours of DCS where I did the Su-25t tutorials where it was all russian and was just being told to enter random key combinations to do different things. It could be an instructor sitting in the back telling me to hit different switches or do things in the physical cockpit which I think would be more engaging and relevant to the actual modules that the player will hopefully go onto purchase and fly.

Since the hawk T2 is synthetic and doesn't have afterburner or the performance of a front-line aircraft such as the hornet, viper or upcoming typhoon it would still encourage new players to go and buy the "real deal" high-performance aircraft, so they can dogfight and shoot down enemies and bomb targets with live weapons. However I still think that since the hawk is a jet-engine powered aircraft rather than a prop and flies with 420kts in low level it would still have enough performance to thrill new players while not taking away from the thrill of flying in a high performance jet like the hornet or viper for the first time.

Perhaps the T2 could also be made as a standard payed module but I don't think it would sell that much when there are options like the hornet and viper available. But I think if ED are looking for that entry module that new DCS players will fly for the first time and flatten the steep entry barrier into the game this awesome aircraft could the key to doing it, just like what its used for in real life.

I maintain this idea still

Make a L-39C free, with a small change?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=162399

Idea is very simple. Anyone who has purchased the L-39, can invite anyone to sit in trainee seat (forward cockpit). They can't fly for free the L-39 alone, but need to have player with paid license.

The purpose for this is that anyone can take new players on flight, give them the controls (and take away at any given moment, like in real one) to fly, shoot etc.

So you can have friends who would be interested, or just random people who are asking a "flight", and you can just tell them when, on what server and then open a front seat for them.

The L-39C would come as part of the DCS default install so no one needs to install it separately.

Would it be a reason not to have a T2 Hawk? No... But it would be very easy way to train people, present them the DCS World and give them fun time, but still ED would sell licenses as someone needs to be there at back seat meanwhile "free time" is being offered.

I had started a similar thread a while ago suggesting the T-2 Buckeye instead mostly because it would be more feasible and easier to develop and license because it is a simpler and older aircraft. However I would not mind at all if a T-45 Gosehawk could be done and included for free with DCS if possible.

Both jets would be great Naval trainers to practice carrier landings with. That way a newbie pilot could be better prepared to move up to a Hornet and already be carrier qualified.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=265902

@Fri

I think making the L-39 free is a horribly bad idea.

1. Far too many people have already paid for it. Making it free now would cause an uproar and have people demanding refunds.

2. You're asking someone who: (a) has probably never played DCS before, (b) is a bit uncertain as to where to even begin, © potentially scared of getting involved in multiplayer because of (a) and (b), to now beg someone for a ride.

Personally, I like the T-2 or T-45 idea as it gives the potential for a newbie to gain both land and naval experience. But, I leave it up to ED to decide.

I would rather see the T-45 over the Hawk T2 as it is carrier capable so you can give people a taste of carrier ops

@Fri

 

I think making the L-39 free is a horribly bad idea.

AND here we go again, completely missing the point..... It is not to make L-39 free... Read the thread!

1. Far too many people have already paid for it. Making it free now would cause an uproar and have people demanding refunds.

Why? No one can fly it for free alone? Again, if you want to fly it alone, you must pay for it!

No one is offering anything free to others unless paid license owner opens a front seat for a someone who doesn't have the license!

The whole problem in the training aircrafts is that: In simulator you do not need a training aircraft!

The simulator IS FOR TRAINING. You can go and crash as much you want. You get to experience all the malfunctions repeated manner to learn to handle them!

Why we do go through all the flight training from theory to simpler ones to finally get to fly solo in some fancy aircraft? Because people need to learn.

Why some people privately owns L-39? Is it only jet you can privately own and fly such price etc?

Making a L-39 simulator for those customers is valuable for money, but not for those who want to fly F-14 or Su-27. You can completely skip the L-39 in once! Go and crash as much you want!

But if you want to simulate the L-39 as you fly L-39, that is completely different case.

And trainers should be

2. You're asking someone who: (a) has probably never played DCS before, (b) is a bit uncertain as to where to even begin, © potentially scared of getting involved in multiplayer because of (a) and (b), to now beg someone for a ride.

I am not asking, I am suggesting to open the door for those easy way. So that when you have a friend (and many does have friends of those you mention), they don't need to fly alone, crash and burn and so on. You don't need to go visit their place and sit next to them physically to tell them how to do things.

You are literally in the virtual cockpit with them, you are there to get them more pleasant experience.

You can even have your niece sitting in a VR at front, while you fly on another computer just with display, without required to pay two licenses to do this in one household!

You can make flight club open days where various people come and they could experience the virtual flight who doesn't dare to go to real one, or pay for it. And they might get so interested about it that they might invest more about DCS World than a flight lessons or just hours.

Personally, I like the T-2 or T-45 idea as it gives the potential for a newbie to gain both land and naval experience. But, I leave it up to ED to decide.

Yes, you want to give a FREE aircraft. I don't. I only would offer a possibility to license owner to open a front seat for someone who doesn't own the license and be in that aircraft as long that license owner is occupying the rear seat!

That is a difference. HUGE difference. And you completely miss that.

Instead developing this "free seat" for already existing, done L-39 module who requires someone buy license to offer that "free seat". You want ED to develop a completely new module, years work, and give it for free to everyone.

HUGE difference.

you mean a free T-45 like this one?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238291

leave ED to finish all their other projects (core, viper, hornet, hind) before thrusting a new niche on them.

I would rather see the T-45 over the Hawk T2 as it is carrier capable so you can give people a taste of carrier ops

The hawk T2 is designed to deliver tactical training whereas the T-45 is intended for practising carrier ops and procedures. The super carrier is also not going to be free meaning that new players would just have a trainer to land on a basic carrier and don't have a platform to practise every type of mission carried out by fast jets. The T-2 offers a much larger scope of training than the T-45, so I think it would actually have a lot more to offer.

Hawk T2:

Because T1A has been done and failed, if ED were to do one, it would be a nightmare to manage the users demanding it for free because they own VEAO's Hawk License, then you'll get the conspiracy theorists that would assume the VEAO Hawk was removed from support to make room for ED's own, etc etc etc.

T-45C is being done by unlicensed 3rd Party and will be free.

I was hoping RazBam would bring back the T-2 Buckeye project.

you mean a free T-45 like this one?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238291

 

leave ED to finish all their other projects (core, viper, hornet, hind) before thrusting a new niche on them.

Thanks Uri for that info. Having the addition of a T-45 that is a Mod built as an EFM from the ground up, that will be free is good news. I just wished it could had been something that was included with a DCS download so newbies that are unaware of the MOD could get right in to it and have a better experience with DCS.

The T-45 might not have all the tactical capabilities of say a Hawk but at least it will be the best if not the only option to introduce friends to DCS in multicrew and further train them.

However it will have functioning CCIP for a 6 station bomb rack for the pylons to do some weapons deployment training.

Here is where this project currently stands. It seems to be well made and almost complete.

Hawk T2:

 

Because T1A has been done and failed, if ED were to do one, it would be a nightmare to manage the users demanding it for free because they own VEAO's Hawk License, then you'll get the conspiracy theorists that would assume the VEAO Hawk was removed from support to make room for ED's own, etc etc etc.

 

T-45C is being done by unlicensed 3rd Party and will be free.

 

I was hoping RazBam would bring back the T-2 Buckeye project.

So...T-45C is a mod?

The hawk T2 is designed to deliver tactical training whereas the T-45 is intended for practising carrier ops and procedures. The super carrier is also not going to be free meaning that new players would just have a trainer to land on a basic carrier and don't have a platform to practise every type of mission carried out by fast jets. The T-2 offers a much larger scope of training than the T-45, so I think it would actually have a lot more to offer.

T-45 being a derivative of Hawk series for carrier ops.

I believe there is more fun and flexibility factor for T-45 than Hawk t2. Carrier ops will be added bonus among other training missions we could do on land bases.

So...T-45C is a mod?

Yes, it will be a mod like the A-4 skyhawk but it has been developed with the help of 3 real-world pilots who have flown the Goshawk as technical advisers with regards to the flight models and technical systems of the aircraft.

So it seems like it would almost be as good as a regular module minus a license.

Which should not be a big deal since it is mostly going to be used for training purposes anyways.

Regarding the comments on learner aircraft to fill the gaps:

I'd be down for ED giving out the L-39C for free tbh.

I bought the module for the ZA and 99% of the time, pick it over the -C.

So if the -C was dropped to free, but the ZA stayed as a paid module...I've lost nothing really, and it's an old module now and sofar ED's only dip into 2 flyables per module.

That also said, I don't think the Su-25T serves its purpose as the 'FC-style' plane as part of the free set anymore, and imo any and all free planes should showcase what DCS's is really about: clicky pits (and the associated systems!), so either the Su-25T should get a full blown clicky-pit upgrade or be replaced by something that is.

Regarding the Hawk T2 as a general separate module...sure. It's a popular aircraft IRL, and there's currently no glass cockpit trainer aircraft in DCS, so it has a niche to fill. Can't say it'd be top of my list though.

I'd imagine the newest T-45C would get better traction though as an intro into carrier ops (as that's ED's other passion project) plus it's also a glass cockpit trainer.

Regarding the comments on learner aircraft to fill the gaps:

 

I'd be down for ED giving out the L-39C for free tbh.

I bought the module for the ZA and 99% of the time, pick it over the -C.

So if the -C was dropped to free, but the ZA stayed as a paid module...I've lost nothing really, and it's an old module now and sofar ED's only dip into 2 flyable's per module.

 

That also said, I don't think the Su-25T serves its purpose as the 'FC-style' plane as part of the free set anymore, and imo any and all free planes should showcase what DCS's is really about: clicky pits (and the associated systems!), so either the Su-25T should get a full blown clicky-pit upgrade or be replaced by something that is.

 

Regarding the Hawk T2 as a general separate module...sure. It's a popular aircraft IRL, and there's currently no glass cockpit trainer aircraft in DCS, so it has a niche to fill. Can't say it'd be top of my list though.

I'd imagine the newest T-45C would get better traction though as an intro into carrier ops (as that's ED's other passion project) plus it's also a glass cockpit trainer.

I agree with Su-25T being un-suitable and out of date to give a new comer to DCS a good feel for the newer modules that most people are going to be interested in like the Hornet and F-16.

The L-39C would be a good replacement option.

Check out this video I recently saw of a new comers view of DCS. At 11:00 minutes he talks about the SU-25T and mentions these very same points.

When I saw the name "Hawk", my initial reaction was no way, no interest.... after those other guys folded their tent, and blew outta Dodge.... Sorry, can't help that.

But to be fair, the T-45C sounds great! And I know is in no way is associated. Best of luck!

The hawk T2 is designed to deliver tactical training whereas the T-45 is intended for practising carrier ops and procedures. The super carrier is also not going to be free meaning that new players would just have a trainer to land on a basic carrier and don't have a platform to practise every type of mission carried out by fast jets. The T-2 offers a much larger scope of training than the T-45, so I think it would actually have a lot more to offer.

What exactly does the T.2 have that the T-45 doesn't? Is it not possible to use the T-45 for "tactical training" because it has been modified for carrier ops? How does this affect the scope? I dare to say you can do all the same in both, plus the carrier ops in the 45, but nothing less.

T-45 WILL have even better market and it can play BOTH ways like the land based Hawk T series's.

With T-45, carrier fun is there as well.

Then again, since its T2 that has more chance to be planned here, well, that is good too...

T-45 being a derivative of Hawk series for carrier ops.

 

 

I believe there is more fun and flexibility factor for T-45 than Hawk t2. Carrier ops will be added bonus among other training missions we could do on land bases.

What exactly does the T.2 have that the T-45 doesn't? Is it not possible to use the T-45 for "tactical training" because it has been modified for carrier ops? How does this affect the scope? I dare to say you can do all the same in both, plus the carrier ops in the 45, but nothing less.

Both aircraft are derived from the hawk T1. That is probably where the similarities between the T-45 and hawk T2 end. The hawk T2 is used by BAES for the RAF for advanced fast jet training which is where pilots are taught everything they need to know that they will use in combat. Once pilots arrive on their front-line squadrons they more or less just need to be taught where the switches are and how to use the plane and are combat ready. They are already fully trained combat pilots when they arrive at their final aircraft training (Eg Typhoon). The training runs like this because the hawk T2 is a lot cheaper to fly and the RAF doesn't have extraordinary amounts of funding unlike the US Navy. It brings down the training cost of a fighter pilot significantly. This means that the hawk T2 needs to be able to train pilots on literally every concept and mission type a multi-role fighter pilot needs to know. To do this it uses a data-link driven synthetic training suite made up of synthetic radars, rwr, EW, bombing, etc. It does not need to have any of these system on-board, it just simulates it using data-link, saving money. Because of this is is responsible for a very large scope of training.

I don't know a lot about how the US Navy trains its pilots but they have a lot more money and can afford to do much more training on the front-line aircraft, not needing to rely as heavily on trainer aircraft. My understanding is that the T-45 is used more as an a slower and easier to fly aircraft to get pilots used to and trained on carrier ops while a lot more of the tactical training and missions can be flown when the pilots start flying the super hornets for example. Looking at the T-45C mod is doesn't look like it has any of the advanced synthetic systems that the T2 has and won't be very useful for showing newcomers how to use a radar, rwr and EW for example.

The T-45 and hawk T2 are completely different aircraft both externally and internally, and have much different purposes and are developed by different organisations. With the T2 in my opinion having a much larger responsibility for a much broader scope of training.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that the T-45 isn't just "a hawk T2 that can also do carrier landings".

Both aircraft are derived from the hawk T1. That is probably where the similarities between the T-45 and hawk T2 end. The hawk T2 is used by BAES for the RAF for advanced fast jet training which is where pilots are taught everything they need to know that they will use in combat. Once pilots arrive on their front-line squadrons they more or less just need to be taught where the switches are and how to use the plane and are combat ready. They are already fully trained combat pilots when they arrive at their final aircraft training (Eg Typhoon). The training runs like this because the hawk T2 is a lot cheaper to fly and the RAF doesn't have extraordinary amounts of funding unlike the US Navy. It brings down the training cost of a fighter pilot significantly. This means that the hawk T2 needs to be able to train pilots on literally every concept and mission type a multi-role fighter pilot needs to know. To do this it uses a data-link driven synthetic training suite made up of synthetic radars, rwr, EW, bombing, etc. It does not need to have any of these system on-board, it just simulates it using data-link, saving money. Because of this is is responsible for a very large scope of training.

 

I don't know a lot about how the US Navy trains its pilots but they have a lot more money and can afford to do much more training on the front-line aircraft, not needing to rely as heavily on trainer aircraft. My understanding is that the T-45 is used more as an a slower and easier to fly aircraft to get pilots used to and trained on carrier ops while a lot more of the tactical training and missions can be flown when the pilots start flying the super hornets for example. Looking at the T-45C mod is doesn't look like it has any of the advanced synthetic systems that the T2 has and won't be very useful for showing newcomers how to use a radar, rwr and EW for example.

 

The T-45 and hawk T2 are completely different aircraft both externally and internally, and have much different purposes and are developed by different organisations. With the T2 in my opinion having a much larger responsibility for a much broader scope of training.

 

Video of some T2 training, the instructor inserts a virtual SAM site for example.

 

One thing I can tell you for sure is that the T-45 isn't just "a hawk T2 that can also do carrier landings".

True. I was only implying the T-45 can have fun both ways, carrier landing and maybe land based training too. Its got modern cockpit too...although not to the level of T-2.

Yes, I do understand Hawk T-2 is a bit more modern and would be good to train for the planes like Eurofighter, Hornet, F-15 Strike Eagle etc...

Yes, I'd like to see this (Hawk T2) module come to fruition...Voted yes.:thumbup:

I think the carrier ops in DCS also really shines and is best experienced with the super-carrier which a newcomer wouldn't have access to leaving their impression of carrier ops to that with the basic legacy stennis carrier.

I think the l-39 has a lot going for it. It's already a tried& true module . It's mature, no longer going thru the growing pains of a new module, which makes it good for introducing to new players.

Hawk would be nice, but given limited resources to develop new aircraft, I'd say there's higher priorities for the community than yet another trainer aircraft

I have less than zero interest in bringing in yet *another* carrier aircraft

If I had a pick of what would be best suited for new players, it would be to make the a-4 community mod official and have it take the place of the su-25. It's full clicky, it's mild mannered, has plenty of systems to manage without becoming overwhelming for new players. For those who care, it can be used with a carrier. Unlike the l-39, it can be used for AAR

But regardless of which way the poll goes , EDs gonna do what they're gonna do

With that being said, if it gives new players a better experience than the su-25, I don't care if they get an aircraft free that I already paid for )shrug(

There was a question in the latest interview with ED @1:27:55 about a new free aircraft that would be better suited for newcomers. It seems like ED has already been in serious discussions about it.

En 2/8/2020 a las 0:20, Luft Waffel dijo:

In the recent GR interview Simon revealed that ED were potentially looking developing the hawk T2 for DCS. The other suggestion was to redo the hawk T1. Personally I don't think it makes sense to re-make the T1 since it doesn't do anything that can't already be done in the C101 or L39. He also mentioned that there was an issue with players not having an engaging option of aircraft to fly to start off with as the only options are the overwhelming and confusing low fidelity russian Su-25t and the unarmed and therefore boring TF-51D. I think that the Hawk T2 could be a perfect candidate for a new free module to introduce players to DCS.

 

The hawk T2 can do all mission types carried out by fast jets such as A/A bvr, bfm and A/G missions. It is built as a trainer so its simple yet has modern avionics that would familiarise new players with systems like western HUDs and MFDs. It is built to be conventional and easy to fly with the FCS like the hornet or F-16 that most players are interested in. The rear-seat instructor can also add and remove targets from the back seat meaning that it would be ideal for squadrons to use to teach and train new pilots, similar to its purpose in real life. Current trainer aircraft available in DCS are not very suitable for training pilots onto the hornet or viper since their avionics are either simple, outdated or both and don't have any systems like FCS in common with the popular aircraft such as hornet or viper.

 

Introducing a new player to DCS in the first few hours of the game, an AI pre-scripted instructor in pre-made tutorials to talk to the new player and introduce them to and talk-through different types of threats and missions in DCS, while adding them into the synthetic system from the backseat. I would much prefer this to my experience of my first few hours of DCS where I did the Su-25t tutorials where it was all russian and was just being told to enter random key combinations to do different things. It could be an instructor sitting in the back telling me to hit different switches or do things in the physical cockpit which I think would be more engaging and relevant to the actual modules that the player will hopefully go onto purchase and fly.

 

Since the hawk T2 is synthetic and doesn't have afterburner or the performance of a front-line aircraft such as the hornet, viper or upcoming typhoon it would still encourage new players to go and buy the "real deal" high-performance aircraft, so they can dogfight and shoot down enemies and bomb targets with live weapons. However I still think that since the hawk is a jet-engine powered aircraft rather than a prop and flies with 420kts in low level it would still have enough performance to thrill new players while not taking away from the thrill of flying in a high performance jet like the hornet or viper for the first time.

 

Perhaps the T2 could also be made as a standard payed module but I don't think it would sell that much when there are options like the hornet and viper available. But I think if ED are looking for that entry module that new DCS players will fly for the first time and flatten the steep entry barrier into the game this awesome aircraft could the key to doing it, just like what its used for in real life.

Also a very detailed ALPHA JET model with fully working cockpits (front and aft). Mind you that the ALPHA JET comes with different possibilities of engines (SAFRAN/TURBOMECA LARZAC 02 or 04 with respectively 2950lbs or 3.400 lbs thrust ea.). Two models: DORNIER ALPHA JET (point nose) and DASSAULT ALPHA JET (shorter nose). The DORNIER has different ejection seats than the E+ version of DASSAULT which are MARTIN BAKER Mk10`s. Alpha Jet is a very good but demanding trainer. It is a good intermediate model to train towards F-16 and F/A-18`s as well as other high end fighters. If I would have to compose a DCS FLIGHT GROUP I would put newcoming people first through a training phase (just like in real life) with basic flight school and then up to advanced flight school to OPERATIONAL CONVERSION TRAINING to full combat status in high end fighters like the VIPER/HORNET/TOMCAT/MIG or SUKHOI jets. Also on  my wishlist is TWO SEATER F-5F TIGER II/TIIGER III  model and T-38C advanced model (milviz has it I believe but not for DCS). If you can fly a T-38, you can nearly fly anything as it is a very demanding aircraft. Basic military trainers I like the LEONARDO M345 and M346`s. The M345 is based on the S211 Marchetti. Also do I like PILATUS PC-7, PC-9 and TEXTRON AT6 TEXAN II (NATO JOINT TRAINING uses them). 

En 2/8/2020 a las 4:14, Baaz dijo:

@Fri

 

I think making the L-39 free is a horribly bad idea.

 

1. Far too many people have already paid for it. Making it free now would cause an uproar and have people demanding refunds.

 

2. You're asking someone who: (a) has probably never played DCS before, (b) is a bit uncertain as to where to even begin, © potentially scared of getting involved in multiplayer because of (a) and (b), to now beg someone for a ride.

 

 

Personally, I like the T-2 or T-45 idea as it gives the potential for a newbie to gain both land and naval experience. But, I leave it up to ED to decide.

HOW ABOUT ALPHA JET? FULLY FUNCTIONAL?