if you do not want to break your neck to check your six in VR

I don't disagree, you're right - but look at the video,

 

-Gunnars, when were you in Afghanistan? I was there a few times in the mid to late 2000s as well (worked for a couple PMCs then).

Ohh, I thought it was only picture/print screen of the videos.

I might check them for fun but I wont get into the discussion of the number of G.

I know from my experience that I for myself enjoy current VR ”level” even more than the simulators at work.

Of course, as with most things in life, its a matter of taste.

I dont see anything as fun as VR (except from IRL) and for me its the only thing good enough to enjoy enough to actually wanna play.

Afghanistan: I was there ’11 to ’13, on a rotation cycle about 1/3 of the time. It was a helo Medevac mission, thats my profession these days.

@Fri13 you seem a little tense

It’s hilarious that there can be such a long thread about how our heads and eyes move. As if we all don’t know how they work so we need video proof! :doh:

It’s hilarious that there can be such a long thread about how our heads and eyes move. As if we all don’t know how they work so we need video proof! :doh:

Funny as hell ......:lol: The other funny thing is lefuneste01 just posted a link to his mod so VR users could look at their 6 and away we go!

Y

 

 

You can explain how you feel 9 G's for 30 seconds differently in centrifuge than 9 G in the F-16....

I Think we Think about the same, from Reading your post.

But, doing a qualification run in the centrifuge, where the onset of G is pre programmed( and quite fast) is harder than doing the same pull by yourself. The qualification is to ensure you are fit for high G so it is not made lazy for being pleasant.

The dirrerence between being PF and passenger in a centrifuge is some part by self being in/or not in control, some part by yourself, adopting to your own limits by setting the onset at your level of flight trim/experience. The same issue if being a non flying pilot in a 2 seat aircraft = you are more prone to G-reltated problems as PNF than when being PF.

I think this discussion is a neverending story. We have different bakgrounds and different ideas of what is fun/realistict etc. And we rally dont need to change other peoples view of this.

I dont need to feel that "its exactly like IRL". I know for some modules that there is quite much behaviour that isnt that close to the real A/C. Doesnt matter, as long as its fun.

I dont notice any difference that matters in the ability to look back between irl flying and VR. It maybe differ but not by much and not important. Using trackIR or extra head movement by software improvment really makes it less realistic in my mind(again, [realistic] isnt my cup of tea for DCS/VR/computer gaming so I would not say that that is a bad idea).

If you are thinking [realistic], how much of your capacity do you use when flying fast jet low level in DCS for avoiding birds? IRL, you dont look inside that much...a bird hit and you are very likely toast. Looking out and be prepared to pull above is a very high priority.

Gave my TrackIR away along time ago. Haven't missed it at all....

DCS in VR is now my free chiropractic therapy, more flexibility, less creaking, better life... DCS + VR = healthy exercise! :smilewink: :pilotfly: :punk: :D :clown_2: :bye_2:

That's a great way of looking at it! Now that you mention it, it has improved the twisting flexibility in my spine quite a bit. It IS healthy exercise! :D

It’s hilarious that there can be such a long thread about how our heads and eyes move. As if we all don’t know how they work so we need video proof! :doh:

Heh. My favorite parts in these threads are always all the videos, pictures, and diagrams that get traded back and forth. Good thing we have this forum for solving all of the world's problems. :megalol:

Fighter pilot are not flying with blinders.

True. But they are also strapped firmly into their seats. Turning the head continually to check six is physically demanding and causes neck problems for fighter pilots.

I use 1:1 and I crane my neck to look round. It's uncomfortable, and I get shot down more often by planes I haven't seen. But it feels more real to me, and that's what I want.

Indeed I look forward to the day when everyone is similarly constrained and I don't have to fight against pilots with robo swivel heads and zoom vision.

Still downloading the update, once that's done I'll post a vid showing exactly what I mean regarding the Rift S/Index/Reverbs I have, and how when pointed in the exact same position as the pilot in the F16 examples I've shown, don't let you see nearly as far into the rear quarter as that pilot does in real life.

I wish I'd kept one of my Pimax now to use in this example, but I got rid of them all along with the Rift, Vive, Vive Pro, Odyssey, Odyssey+, VR HMDs I just wasn't as better options kept coming along.

Of note - Microsoft's own engineers say that VR units (referring to the Oculus Rift/etc of a few years ago, but it isn't much different in terms of FOV than current VR headsets) only have 100 degrees of vision, while peripheral vision is 180 degrees (40 degrees per side, or as I've been saying, 2 clock positions).

Quote:

With VR,

, your peripheral horizontal vision is limited to about 100 degrees, which is far less than the 180 degrees of peripheral vision we experience normally. For this reason, Microsoft says, VR is more akin to looking through binoculars. (And I’ll say it for them: Using HoloLens is like looking through a mail slot.)

VR headsets partially compensate for this loss of peripheral vision the same way Microsoft does with HoloLens: They use positional sound when possible to present contextual information to the user. That’s how the Oculus Rift I just tested works, certainly.

But that doesn’t help with the central problem of lost peripheral vision. So Microsoft has come up with something called a sparse peripheral display, which emulates true peripheral vision using rings of peripheral LEDs around each lens in the VR headset. These, Microsoft says, create a 170 degree horizontal peripheral view, augmenting the normal VR display.

https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66964/microsoft-adds-peripheral-vision-vr

I updated the first post with a new version of the guide, one OpenVR advanced settings option is to be set for DCS and it was missing.

But that doesn’t help with the central problem of lost peripheral vision. So Microsoft has come up with something called a sparse peripheral display, which emulates true peripheral vision using rings of peripheral LEDs around each lens in the VR headset. These, Microsoft says, create a 170 degree horizontal peripheral view, augmenting the normal VR display.

That was tested by Oculus on the one of the DK2 prototypes, and it was promising thing but had own problems.

And that is as well something that example Phillips does with their television line of "Ambilight" feature: https://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-so/tv/p/ambilight

It gives first as nice effect, but then it will eventually just starts to annoy as you can't see colors or shapes well, and if there is low contrast, you can't even detect motion in your far peripheral vision.

You are truly limited to about 120 degree total FOV, 60 degree for both sides. And that is what you do in real life too, you turn your head. That is as well what real pilots does, they turn their bodies so that they can turn well their heads to their rear if they want to look their six. They don't use far peripheral vision as claimed here as you can't see colors or details or anything that would give you information that where the enemy is, what is the enemy attitude and what is the enemy speed. It is not enough information at all that you would notice a small movement somewhere behind you, as you don't know is the enemy fighter having its guns toward you or is it flying away from you.

https://i.imgur.com/opNnoOx.mp4

Human eye peripheral vision is extremely low for any details or colors. Only good to detect motion when there is enough contrast, and its second important task is to help you understand the scenery, that where you are. They are both as important, but for spotting, details etc recognition, fovea is required.

I updated the first post with a new version of the guide, one OpenVR advanced settings option is to be set for DCS and it was missing.

Thanks lefuneste01 I appreciate this mod and it sure saves my old neck !

Still downloading the update, once that's done I'll post a vid showing exactly what I mean regarding the Rift S/Index/Reverbs I have, and how when pointed in the exact same position as the pilot in the F16 examples I've shown, don't let you see nearly as far into the rear quarter as that pilot does in real life.

 

I wish I'd kept one of my Pimax now to use in this example, but I got rid of them all along with the Rift, Vive, Vive Pro, Odyssey, Odyssey+, VR HMDs I just wasn't as better options kept coming along.

 

Of note - Microsoft's own engineers say that VR units (referring to the Oculus Rift/etc of a few years ago, but it isn't much different in terms of FOV than current VR headsets) only have 100 degrees of vision, while peripheral vision is 180 degrees (40 degrees per side, or as I've been saying, 2 clock positions).

 

Quote:

 

https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66964/microsoft-adds-peripheral-vision-vr

 

I just remembered something. Our peripheral vision is trash. We think we see the world in perfect clarity but outside of narrow front view, we really can't distinguish much. Probably why pilots strain their necks to check six like in the picture below (after he dropped his load).

There was a NatGeo Brain Games episode a few years back that showed how bad the peripheral vision really is. It was a test of looking a person and trying to determine who was standing to the left and right of that person. They weren't even close to the limit of the peripheral vision. In that test, I couldn't tell if it was a man, a woman, what clothes they were wearing. Pretty eye opening - pun intended.

So if you need any kind of visual clarity, you're still going to have to put the object (that you want to see) in the front of your eyes. I still want larger FoV for routine things like flipping a switch though.

And it's a double whamy when your peripheral vision is not only that great in real life but add in VR and the problem is compounded even more.

Please explain how our eyes work again. As if we don’t know or have never used them. :doh:

Please explain how our eyes work again. As if we don’t know or have never used them. :doh:

Please explain the logic to claim that you need much, a much wider FOV in VR, when already your eyes foxes ain't so much limited and you can't see your target well in peripheral vision anyways?

In VR you need to turn anyways as much than in real world to see well to 180 degree backward.

Why it is a problem then?

In VR you don't need to turn more, nor less, but same amount when you want to get your fovea on the target, so that you can actually see the target!

Even if you have 210° vision, your vision to see anywhere near well is under 120°, and your stereoscopic vision is less than 60° and your real vision is under 30°.

In real world if you want to see well behind you, you turn your head. If you can't turn your head, you turn more with body.

When in real world you have a seat, you have cockpit where to take support to twist your upper body and shift your weight so you get to turn your head to rear, as much as required in VR, then what is the problem?

We are not talking about limitation of seeing at six, we are talking only about immersion limit that we get some black bars around our vision.

And some people have that as problem as they only believe that they have perfect vision and they can track tiny fast objects in low contrast situations just by turning head by 30 degree and using only their extreme peripheral vision.

The situation is this.

VR is far more realistic than TracIR when it comes to "check your six".

TrackIR is like cheating, you can too effortlessly just "check your six", at such maneuvers when you wouldn't in real life.

With VR you turn as much head with the body twisting to "check your six" as you would do in real life, be it in cockpit or in car, in chair etc.

With VR you are seriously limited by the cockpit characters like great visibility in F-16, not so great in F-18 and limited in MiG-21 or Su-25. With trackIR you dont even need to turn your head or move it to see past chair. In VR your 1:1 motion means you need to find a way to see past the chair and cockpit elements. In VR if you just look to rear, there is a chair. In TrackIR there is automation that you look around obstacles. In VR you could even raise standing and look your six as there is no restrictions, but TrackIR has.

So people should stop arguing "we know how our eyes work" if going to argue that they can see as well with their peripheral vision as they can with their fovea.

Put on fullscreen and try to claim your vision is as great in peripheral as with fovea....

Just to put my 2 cents in the debate:

DCS is a game, if you play online you'll compete with trackIR users, if you play SP, well, that's your choice to play as you like.

I'm more than 50 year old and I wear glasses with multifocal lenses, so in reallity I would never be allowed to pilot a combat plane or helo.

Why so much post for a so small thing ? If you dont like or dont need it, don't use it. If you need it, use it. Everyone has his own vision of playing flight sim games, based on what he is. Why should only one be the truth ?

if you combine the fighter pilots rule " never fly in a straight line for longer than 30 seconds"

with the rule " check six every 30 seconds" then what you do is drop your wing and turn to check six every 30 seconds..

no sore neck.

you are flying historically.

and you can check beneath you as well..

fly zig zagging to check behind you in the same way you zig zag when taxiing to see in front of you...

if you combine the fighter pilots rule " never fly in a straight line for longer than 30 seconds"

with the rule " check six every 30 seconds" then what you do is drop your wing and turn to check six every 30 seconds..

no sore neck.

you are flying historically.

and you can check beneath you as well..

 

fly zig zagging to check behind you in the same way you zig zag when taxiing to see in front of you...

:thumbup:

Bingo.

In real world if you want to see well behind you, you turn your head...

Really? Wait I don’t understand... you mean my head can turn?! I never knew that! Hey I just tried it and it worked! I never knew how my own neck worked until it was explained in another text wall! :megalol:

...in the same way you zig zag when taxiing to see in front of you...

That only applies to tail draggers. :D

Heh. Maybe that can be the next topic for the Princeton Debating Society. I hope not. LOL :helpsmilie:

DCS is a game, if you play online you'll compete with trackIR users, if you play SP, well, that's your choice to play as you like.

This is a absolute valid reason for using other than 1:1 ratio.

Earlier in the thread the ability to look straight behind was given as the reason, in the context of not being able to look as far back as IRL, which isnt really true.

if you combine the fighter pilots rule...

And when in a dogfight you do not fly mach 1.X so pulling G will give you a descent alfa. This moves the following aircraft from straight behind to a up behind position. The turning radius will move the follower further in the same line, and when you add a bit of roll when trying to evade you have the follower far away from straight behind and you do not need to twist the neck 180 degrees.

This is a absolute valid reason for using other than 1:1 ratio.

Earlier in the thread the ability to look straight behind was given as the reason, in the context of not being able to look as far back as IRL, which isnt really true.

 

 

 

And when in a dogfight you do not fly mach 1.X so pulling G will give you a descent alfa. This moves the following aircraft from straight behind to a up behind position. The turning radius will move the follower further in the same line, and when you add a bit of roll when trying to evade you have the follower far away from straight behind and you do not need to twist the neck 180 degrees.

I posted this as well, when in a one or two circle fight, you end up looking up more than back, especially if your opponent is across the circle from you (common in any BFM fight). You're usually rolled close to 80 or 90 degrees when turning against a threat across the circle, which means more looking up than back, but you can still have situations where you need to look back into your 6, it's just less likely versus a single threat you're engaging). I'll post my vid tomorrow, it CLEARLY shows that the Rift S/Reverb, when pointed in the exact same head position as pilots heads in the pictures and videos that have been posted in this thread, show on the monitor screen and in the headset screen, that they are NOT pointed in a spot where you can see a threat, where as in real life the pilots clearly DO see their threat with the same head position/direction. It's a full clock position or even 2 OFF from where a real life pilot can see in reality using peripheral vision.

I put a hanging model at 6 oclock, and demonstrate where I can see it from without VR in my chair, and then do the same in DCS, have a threat at 6 oclock, and show on the screen where it can be seen with VR HMDs, and the difference in head position from reality to DCS. It's a big difference...and VR HMD companies wouldn't be researching and spending $$$ on trying to replicate human peripheral vision in next gen VR headsets, if current VR headsets didn't have an issue with peripheral vision.

first post updated to point to IL2BOS thread, that is up to date with the second option FreePie+Hydra

I have been puzzling about this thread for a while, but, the thing that brought it home was CV19... why ... well the company gave me an office chair to work at home (these things are awesome, but they have a low back, rather than a full height back gaming style chair)... i can now see well behind me easily into my 6 spot...