CCIP Mode functionality

Hello folks,

I'm replying the following post:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3380639&postcount=1

The complain about CCIP are basically these:

1. The CCIP impact point ("the cross") drops below the HUD's Field-Of-View (FOV).

2. The CCIP has a solid line, instead of dashed.

3. The "LIMITED CCIP" cue, an horizontal bar that moves from the CCIP impact point towards the Velocity Vector (VV), does not appear.

4. CCIP converting to AUTO at release time, by pressing the pickle.

My reply is this:

1. CCIP to AUTO conversion was included several updates ago. Now if you press the pickle during CCIP, the impact point is saved by the system as a target point allowing you to fly back and hit the same place either by CCIP or AUTO.

2. Drawing a dashed line is, believe it or not, complex. Specially since the line is a vector drawn by DCS on real time.

1 and 3 are related. It is hard to make the calculations for the "LIMITED CCIP" horizontal bar. I worked on it several times, but the development was taking so long that I pushed it to the end of the queue until there was some free time available to deal with it. By my calculations that feature will require 3 or more weeks of exclusive development time.

The lack of these features do not affect CCIP accuracy in any way or form.

Thanks Zeus, good to know.

1. CCIP to AUTO conversion was included several updates ago. Now if you press the pickle during CCIP, the impact point is saved by the system as a target point allowing you to fly back and hit the same place either by CCIP or AUTO.

It is not the system described in the manual. Conversion to auto happens on the fly with a "ghost CCIP", really similar to the 3/9 or 5 mils A-10C consent mode. What you described is basically a "Z mark point" in A-10C terminology. Not the same.

2. Drawing a dashed line is, believe it or not, complex. Specially since the line is a vector drawn by DCS on real time.

To be frankly honest, I happen to work a lot with graphics in general and C++. This is typically not a really complex task. I do understand that I do not know the limitation of DCS' API, but there's a lot of literature on said kind of task and I just can't figure how this could be a complex task.

EDIT: To give more info on the CCIP-to-AUTO conversion. This is linked to complaint 1, where the CCIP cue should stay on the HUD even though the actual impact point is below the HUD. This makes it so you can designate "on the fly" a AUTO attack point AND convert directly to AUTO release, meaning it will give you the AUTO cues to release the bomb so that they impact at said point. Like I said, really similar to release consent modes on the A-10C.

This is currently one of the biggest issues I have with the AV-8B NA right now. I am happy this is being looked at but I am not sure if things are being understood correctly due to the language used.

Impact point could mean the CCIP impact point, or the place the CCIP reticle points to when the actual reticle would be below the HUD.

What it seems is being described in the manual is that I can take the ghost CCIP and place it over a target, press & hold the pickle button & fly according to the HUD symbology to do a "CCRP" release.

Basically when the CCIP impact point isnt displayed in the HUD FOV it becomes a CCRP target designator like in the Mirage 2000C. At least that is how I understand it.

What it seems is being described in the manual is that I can take the ghost CCIP and place it over a target, press & hold the pickle button & fly according to the HUD symbology to do a "CCRP" release.

 

Basically when the CCIP impact point isnt displayed in the HUD FOV it becomes a CCRP target designator like in the Mirage 2000C. At least that is how I understand it.

Very close!

The CCIP to AUTO conversion designation lets you place the ghost CCIP cross (the CCIP cross shown in the HUD when the actual impact point exceeds the HUD FOV) over a target, press the pickle button, create an INS designation at the ghost CCIP cross location, and automatically switch over to AUTO mode at this point. As long as the actual CCIP cross wasn't inside the HUD field-of-view, pressing the pickle button won't release ordnance when pressed momentarily.

This is separate from both a point blank designation (pressing the pickle button while in AUTO delivery mode with no target designated, creating an INS designation at the velocity vector location), and the target designation that Zeus67 is describing in his post that creates a target designation upon CCIP weapon release and provides steering cues for a rapid re-attack on the same target.

ChickenSim let me make you a question.

The difference between CCIP to AUTO conversion and Point Blank designation is only in the first case the INS designation is made with the ghost CCIP cross and in the second case the INS designation is made with the velocity vector?

Or there are more differences?

Thanks a lot.

EDIT: And also the first example you are in CCIP mode and in the second you are in AUTO mode

That about sums it up Esac_mirmidon.

Nice...

Thats what i call flexibility. XDD

Is there, or should there be, a way to slew the DMT to the target point created by a CCIP designation? As it currently works you have to wipe the target point before you can summon the DMT....which seems a bit of a wasted opportunity; would be great for BDA.

Is there, or should there be, a way to slew the DMT to the target point created by a CCIP designation? As it currently works you have to wipe the target point before you can summon the DMT....which seems a bit of a wasted opportunity; would be great for BDA.

When an INS designation is created, the DMT should automatically follow the designated point and provide video. If the DMT display is selected it can also be used to sweeten the designation with the TDC.

Source: A1-AV8BB-TAC-000 Tactical Manual Vol. 1 pgs. 2-43 - 2-44.

When an INS designation is created, the DMT should automatically follow the designated point and provide video. If the DMT display is selected it can also be used to sweeten the designation with the TDC.

 

Source: A1-AV8BB-TAC-000 Tactical Manual Vol. 1 pgs. 2-43 - 2-44.

I see they are way ahead of me.

I think I must have been doing it wrong - I was expecting to bring up the DMT video feed while the target point was outside its FOV.

The lack of these features do not affect CCIP accuracy in any way or form.

No, they do not. But those features confer a significant tactical advantage, allowing rapid employment of ordnance on targets of opportunity without requiring specific dive parameters in order to get the bomb fall point into the HUD FoV. The A-10C has this feature, as does the F-16C. It's extremely useful especially in a fast jet.

I'd like to commend Razbam's recent steps to improve engagement with the community. But it's not a great feeling to see a developer dismiss something that as a paying customer we might think is really important.

Hopefully community feedback could help inform your development priorities. I wouldn't second guess your assessment of the difficulty of implementing the feature. But even a partial implementation seems like low hanging fruit to me and would add a lot of value. I suspect others would find it very useful as well. Hopefully you can consider bumping this up so that it's at least not on the very end of your queue.

 

My reply is this:

1. CCIP to AUTO conversion was included several updates ago. Now if you press the pickle during CCIP, the impact point is saved by the system as a target point allowing you to fly back and hit the same place either by CCIP or AUTO.

 

You may be missing the point a little, Zeus. The function in question allows for a conversion from CCIP to AUTO in the *same pass.* This is completely different from storing target coordinates for a re-attack, and is a separate delivery mode that usefully combines CCIP and AUTO modes.

2. Drawing a dashed line is, believe it or not, complex. Specially since the line is a vector drawn by DCS on real time.

seriously that is a problem blocking the progress? you have access to the SDK and everything.

and befor someone says i have no idea what i am talking about (the coding equivalent to quoting from the NATOPs)

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=156321&d=1485976880

probably even easier now with access to the SDK and nearly 2 years later (the pic is from 2017)

on a serious side and not just complaining ... if you want help send me a PM

(would actualy be hilarious if its more complicated with the SDK :megalol: )

Zeus I think you are also forgetting that that DMT is not simulated at all. It selects a point on the ground and that is all!

SOROS 1-1 reporting for duty!

on a serious side and not just complaining ... if you want help send me a PM

(would actualy be hilarious if its more complicated with the SDK :megalol: )

I'm just guessing here, since I do not have access to the SDK, but I would not be surprised if the SDK provides CCIP bombing including HUD symbology. If the SDK CCIP bombing is implemented with a solid line with no API to change the line style then ... well then you are out of luck as a 3rd party developer.

I'm just guessing here, since I do not have access to the SDK, but I would not be surprised if the SDK provides CCIP bombing including HUD symbology. If the SDK CCIP bombing is implemented with a solid line with no API to change the line style then ... well then you are out of luck as a 3rd party developer.

That's for sure not how it works. At least according to Zeus' post, it is clear it's not like that. It's probably because it requires the dashed line to be multiple small non-dashed lines. With how things are drawn and move around, it might be a bit more trouble to make the coordinate transforms/linear transforms to keep every tidy.

At least that's my guess. There's no way this is a "complex" problem like Zeus makes it up.

Dont they have a dashed line in the Mirage radar too?

Like I said in my earlier post something must be lost in translation because I cant imagine the dashed line is the real issue.

Can =DECOY= clarify?

Very close!

 

The CCIP to AUTO conversion designation lets you place the ghost CCIP cross (the CCIP cross shown in the HUD when the actual impact point exceeds the HUD FOV) over a target, press the pickle button, create an INS designation at the ghost CCIP cross location, and automatically switch over to AUTO mode at this point. As long as the actual CCIP cross wasn't inside the HUD field-of-view, pressing the pickle button won't release ordnance when pressed momentarily.

 

This is separate from both a point blank designation (pressing the pickle button while in AUTO delivery mode with no target designated, creating an INS designation at the velocity vector location), and the target designation that Zeus67 is describing in his post that creates a target designation upon CCIP weapon release and provides steering cues for a rapid re-attack on the same target.

I would like to add, that as long as the ASL for AUTO delivery sways from left to right and back like a drunken sailor when banking the aircraft, it is totally useless as a "steering indication".

Before this is fixed (simply fly an AUTO delivery in the F/A-18C to see how it is supposed to display on the HUD), any complex modes like conversion from CCIP to AUTO etc. is more or less useless.

The two key elements to make the AV-8B a workable bombing platform beyond laser guided stuff (LGB and L-MAV) will be to fix CCIP with the reflected release cue and a working ASL for AUTO mode.

After these work as in real life (detailed in the NATOPS TAC manual) it does make sense to do the more complex options.

At least in my opinion.

I currently test the bombing modes with DMT after every update and store the Harrier for later, when it's fixed.

Precisely. AUTO steering cue is broken and without it half of the Harrier delivery modes won't work properly anyway.

What Shagrat said...

What Shargat said. Harrier CCRP is extremely hard and therefore ineffective compared to F/A-18C (same action).

Is it what we have really how real Harriers HUD cues behave? Is there any data or chance for improvement?

More discussion here...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3578646