A comprehensive bug report on Polychop’s Gazelle

Great idea and some valid concerns in there but the uses of the word meme and unnecessary attempts of humiliation on a dev trying to be casually informative stinks it up for me. This could have been done in a much more mature manner imo.

@Evontroy

Thanks for posting. I own this module from day one and never touched it since, only to check if they achieved to finally fix it (never happened in years). I wonder how this could pass QA of ED. It should have never been allowed to leave early access in this state. In my opinion, it's an insult for helicopter simmers and the other DCS helicopter modules.

Yes, but look how the devs reacted about those issues over the years. Mature? No.

There are generally two types of development teams:

1. The team responds to user feedback and where applicable incorporates the feedback into the product when the feedback is accurate and relevant

2. The team regards any criticism (feedback) as a personal affront to their professional abilities and doubles down in order to justify product inadequacies and bugs

I fear Polychop is type two, VEAO was the same with the Hawk, some of the same arguments were used when the community criticised the flight model "we had real pilots" etc. etc. and we all know how the Hawk ended up. Although it could be argued the document provided by Evontroy goes a bit far, I would commend them for the amount of time they spent quantifying their arguments and concerns. I'm not a fan of singling out individuals for criticism in any organization as this can easily turn into a witch hunt and rarely ends in anything constructive. That the Gazelle module is not at the level of the other helo's in DCS should be obvious to anyone who is trying to look at this impartially. I hope Polychop can admit the product's shortcomings and do something about them, that would be the sign of a company who cares about quality, accuracy and its customers.

-edit-

Im not getting caught in this discussion again. Please ignore.

Would it be possible for Polychop to just use the ED version of the Mistral missile that’s already in the simulator?

Dear community,

In the light of recent events, in particular the bug report document posted here, we’d like to make a statement.

We understand your concerns, the Gazelle hasn’t been supported as much as we’d have liked to for quite a while. Some bugs have been known for a long period of time but have not been addressed as of yet. Polychop has shifted it’s priorities and limited assets towards developing a new module. The idea has always been that the new module, with it’s more advanced flightmodel and other features we know you as a community would like to see, would pave the way for a number of much needed updates to the Gazelle. In hindsight we can all agree that this strategy did not work out for the best as simply too much time passed in which the Gazelle didn’t get the attention it deserves.

The Gazelle as a module has deteriorated during this period of time even though some updates were released that did not get mentioned in the changelog. Some issues have been there from the beginning while others were introduced by many of the core engine updates of DCS, which we should have adapted to. The core engine is a constant work in progress, ED has been doing a great job in enhancing it and making it an ever more feature rich environment. The code of a module heavily relies on the core engine, when certain parts of the engine code are changed it might interfere with the module. A certain synergy between Polychop and ED is needed in order to be able to adapt to any core engine changes. Communication between Polychop and ED on the matter of these code incompatibility issues could be more streamlined and we’re determined to put more effort in to that.

Your message is clear though and it made us reconsider our priorities. As stated before, our intentions were to learn from the flaws in the Gazelle and build the new module from scratch, then implement and adapt the new code for the Gazelle module. Now we will focus on finding ways to develop both the Gazelle and the new module in parallel. This means we have to expand as a company as right now Polychop has only one coder, a graphics artist and an intern. Your voice has been heard and we’re already in negotiations with a very promising coder who will focus solely on the Gazelle. With the above in mind we will try our best to bring you the updates you requested as soon as possible.

We realize that actions speak louder than words and that we will have a lot to prove and improve.

One of the things we’d like to change is the way we interact with the community. Asking of you to start with a clean slate might be too much at this point but know that our intentions are to be more receptive to your suggestions and feedback. This means items that were previously non-negotiable will now be up for discussion and possible implementation again. To set an example we will be implementing the changes to the Mistral missile.

We have a long way to go and we know this statement won’t take away your skepticism. We’ve always had the intention to bring the Gazelle to a higher level. Making us reconsider our strategy might get it there at a faster pace. We thank you for that.

:thumbup:

Good to hear. Good luck in all of your future endeavors.

"Polychop has shifted it’s priorities and limited assets towards developing a new module."

Not witch hunting, but that's really all I needed to read to understand this entire thread.

"Polychop has shifted it’s priorities and limited assets towards developing a new module."

 

'nuff said.

"Now we will focus on finding ways to develop both the Gazelle and the new module in parallel."

'nuff said.

Some comments made over the last few days by members of this "So called community" Have been horrible, And towards individuals and not constructively, I find that very sad.

Well, that was pretty cringe worthy on both sides. But I'm glad that there has been some resolution and things will be moving forward.

Some comments made over the last few days by members of this "So called community" Have been horrible, And towards individuals and not constructively, I find that very sad.

I agree but I think the same can be said by members of both sides. But let's keep this constructive and forward looking.

I performed a test flight one year ago with Borchi_2b "Sven", as I am a military heli pilot in armée de l'air.

I flew the real Gazelle at the beginning of my career and now I am on the As555 Fennec with 3000h+.

 

Sven is a very nice and comprehensive guy.

I still wonder why the Polychop French guy (Patrick?) didn't speak to me even once. It could have been easier for me to explain my complaint about the FM.

 

I left Polychop Discord after weeks because there was no more answer.

I met some Gazelle pilote to try to help Polychop because we are really looking forward to take pleasure with the Gazelle but it is impossible with the current FM as it is so weird and the cyclic is not coded like a helo.

 

Armée de l'air is very very very interested in DCS. It is a great software for us because it allows to perform COMAOs connected together from our respective air base.

 

For the helos, we will use DCS for the formation of our future leaders, mission commander, for the CAS and CCA qualifications and so on .. So maaaany on. Unfortunately we can't use the Gazelle for that. So we will buy a lot of licence of the UH1 and the Mi8

Thank you for posting! Real World Pilot here too, but with no Gazelle experience. And therefore got somehow beat down by some guys here for criticizing the flight model more than a year ago. Their argument was, that the FM was checked by some french airforce guys and that they would like the FM. I could never believe that. It just didnt (and still doesn't) behave like a real chopper.

Hope Polychop will fix this somehow, because the chopper itself is a great add on in the world of dcs!

I wish them all the best in making this a great chopper.

Many thanks for this news and the promised changes to get Gazelle updates moving again.

Though it takes time and effort to keep news flowing, please regularly give us at least brief updates on whatever you're working on. We don't need guarantees or Dead Lines, just knowledge that you are making progress.

I'd say that emulating the Warthog and Blackshark updates as being periodically shared by ED would be warmly welcomed - and keep the haters at bay.

Looking forward to the fixes for Gazelle, and your new module as well!

Dear community,

 

In the light of recent events, in particular the bug report document posted here, we’d like to make a statement.

 

We understand your concerns, the Gazelle hasn’t been supported as much as we’d have liked to for quite a while. Some bugs have been known for a long period of time but have not been addressed as of yet. Polychop has shifted it’s priorities and limited assets towards developing a new module. The idea has always been that the new module, with it’s more advanced flightmodel and other features we know you as a community would like to see, would pave the way for a number of much needed updates to the Gazelle. In hindsight we can all agree that this strategy did not work out for the best as simply too much time passed in which the Gazelle didn’t get the attention it deserves.

 

The Gazelle as a module has deteriorated during this period of time even though some updates were released that did not get mentioned in the changelog. Some issues have been there from the beginning while others were introduced by many of the core engine updates of DCS, which we should have adapted to. The core engine is a constant work in progress, ED has been doing a great job in enhancing it and making it an ever more feature rich environment. The code of a module heavily relies on the core engine, when certain parts of the engine code are changed it might interfere with the module. A certain synergy between Polychop and ED is needed in order to be able to adapt to any core engine changes. Communication between Polychop and ED on the matter of these code incompatibility issues could be more streamlined and we’re determined to put more effort in to that.

 

Your message is clear though and it made us reconsider our priorities. As stated before, our intentions were to learn from the flaws in the Gazelle and build the new module from scratch, then implement and adapt the new code for the Gazelle module. Now we will focus on finding ways to develop both the Gazelle and the new module in parallel. This means we have to expand as a company as right now Polychop has only one coder, a graphics artist and an intern. Your voice has been heard and we’re already in negotiations with a very promising coder who will focus solely on the Gazelle. With the above in mind we will try our best to bring you the updates you requested as soon as possible.

 

We realize that actions speak louder than words and that we will have a lot to prove and improve.

One of the things we’d like to change is the way we interact with the community. Asking of you to start with a clean slate might be too much at this point but know that our intentions are to be more receptive to your suggestions and feedback. This means items that were previously non-negotiable will now be up for discussion and possible implementation again. To set an example we will be implementing the changes to the Mistral missile.

 

We have a long way to go and we know this statement won’t take away your skepticism. We’ve always had the intention to bring the Gazelle to a higher level. Making us reconsider our strategy might get it there at a faster pace. We thank you for that.

Dear community,

 

...

Viel Erfolg!

Fox

i sincerely hope Polychop stands by their product and fixes it. It makes no sense to push a new module out before repairing their reputation. Regardless of what future modules they release... the community won't forget the Gazelle, and will choose to trust the developer accordingly.

Dear community...

Good luck with changing things up! I, for one, actually was fine with PC going the route of backporting the new tech to the Gazelle once the main dev. thrust on this was done. Making a progress update on things every couple of months would have gone a long way....but making progress updates on something not officially disclosed and anoucend wouldn't make a lot of sense i reckon :)

In the end it seems reasonalbe to me that a dev gets better and better with each project and module being developt. And if that tech is then backported to some degree to old modules as an improvement upgrade, that is really great.

We realize that actions speak louder than words and that we will have a lot to prove and improve.

Better late than never …

One of the things we’d like to change is the way we interact with the community.

We community may be curious. RAZBAM had written it on the flag, but lately has become very quiet ...

We have a long way to go and we know this statement won’t take away your skepticism.

As for me as a customer in any case! I can not speak for the others ...

I can't understand that your logic was to make a new module without maintain the old one... Don't you think your first clients will be disappointed? And they will buy a new module...?

Perhaps I misunderstood and you planned to offer the new module to your gazelle clients ?

We are waiting to see your changes and actions, you will are making your own advertisement, do it well.

I have long been a polychop fan, while it has some issues with the FM over all I've been happy with it and had a load of fun with the aircraft. Also I've become friends with the Dev and understood their reasoning on developing the new technology for a new module and then using that to upgrade the gazelle. It's far different from a "release as many modules as possible" cash grab mentality even if some think thats what it is from the outside. I understand peoples disappointment too though, I certainly miss being able to do multicrew in the Gazelle. I had some awesome missions where me and my WSO would knock out air defenses for a L-39 coin op to take an enemy camp that a lot of the squadron got involved in. Or another where we used the NADIR to locate targets for JDAM strikes. The gazelle is a great aircraft and I look forward to seeing her returned to her former glory and better. I also look forward to Polychops next project.

To those with pitchforks though thinking the dev has ill intent, remember they gave us four versions of the aircraft for the price of one and they didn't have to do that.

I have long been a polychop fan, while it has some issues with the FM over all I've been happy with it and had a load of fun with the aircraft. Also I've become friends with the Dev and understood their reasoning on developing the new technology for a new module and then using that to upgrade the gazelle. It's far different from a "release as many modules as possible" cash grab mentality even if some think thats what it is from the outside. I understand peoples disappointment too though, I certainly miss being able to do multicrew in the Gazelle. I had some awesome missions where me and my WSO would knock out air defenses for a L-39 coin op to take an enemy camp that a lot of the squadron got involved in. Or another where we used the NADIR to locate targets for JDAM strikes. The gazelle is a great aircraft and I look forward to seeing her returned to her former glory and better. I also look forward to Polychops next project.

 

To those with pitchforks though thinking the dev has ill intent, remember they gave us four versions of the aircraft for the price of one and they didn't have to do that.

The four version can't be sold separatly... We are all agree that gazelle is a good module, that's why there is a discussion now, we talk about it because it has been completely abandoned since too much time. Polychop reaction is good, but how late it is, what guarantee we have that there will be a good follow of the gazelle when the new module will come, and same question for the new module...

Confidence has been lost, for my part and some friends, and we fly with gazelle almost 2 evening by week... So we like it, but we hope that this announce will bring all together in a real community....