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AMRAAM a bit too smokeless...


FoxAlfa

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Is it just me or the AMRAAM is a bit too much smokeless in the DCS?

 

 

or

 

 

I know temperature, altitude, pressure etc has to do with it and this has probably been discussed before to exhaustion, but I never seen in DCS even this short smoke from the AMRAAM...


Edited by FoxAlfa

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That's vapor, not smoke. Vapor effects for rocket motors are not modeled.

Then it's about time for them to get modelled.

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Go right ahead, who's stopping you?

The integrity check and my non-existent access to the source code.

 

Sorry that I stated a wish that I would like to see getting implemented by the devs...

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Technically it shouldn't be too difficult since there is a particle system already for other missiles.

 

Probably it would just involve tweaking the trigger to simulate the vapor and the settings of the particle emitter that is already there.

 

But it is up to the ED to figure out their priorities, but the thing like this really would really help the 'red' side in the MP which is already sparse and declining since everybody wanting to fly the Hornet and full fidelity jets...

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

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I suppose it might help the red side some times. But given that atmospheric moisture content doesn't appear to be simulated at all in-game, I have my doubts that it would help (or should help) anywhere outside of contrail zones, if that.

So, technically, no it's not really possible to simulate this accurately.

 

But it is up to the ED to figure out their priorities, but the thing like this really would really help the 'red' side in the MP which is already sparse and declining since everybody wanting to fly the Hornet and full fidelity jets...

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I suppose it might help the red side some times. But given that atmospheric moisture content doesn't appear to be simulated at all in-game, I have my doubts that it would help (or should help) anywhere outside of contrail zones, if that.

So, technically, no it's not really possible to simulate this accurately.

 

If you check both videos, neither of the planes are contrailing, since the missile burns at a higher temperature it will generate contrails/vapor at a much lower altitude.

 

At since, in my humble experience, most of the engagements on PG Blue Flag start near contrail altitude of 6000-8500m where it would help a lot with launch detection. And once Hornet gets TWS I think it will become vital.

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

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I also checked videos where no contrails are produced.

 

The smokeless motor is there because it is an advantage. It's not going away just because it may be helpful in some cases to some people. The entire point is to deny you that vital launch detection (it's really not that vital IMHO) and degrade your SA. And I doubt that ED will implement it without having a proper simulation framework around it either, but who knows.

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I also checked videos where no contrails are produced.

 

The smokeless motor is there because it is an advantage. It's not going away just because it may be helpful in some cases to some people. The entire point is to deny you that vital launch detection (it's really not that vital IMHO) and degrade your SA. And I doubt that ED will implement it without having a proper simulation framework around it either, but who knows.

 

Ok, just to clarify.

 

Nobody is saying to change the smokeless motor in the one with the smokes to give the advantage to the 'red' players since that would not have to do anything with the reality.

 

The proposal is that to apply the contrailing/vapor effects (for which there is already a framework for planes) to the missiles with the wider altitude range like in reality, in the end, making a better and more realistic simulation.

 

And I do respect your opinion, but I would love to hear EDs opinion on this also.

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

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"Smokeless" in DCS is gift from God. They will not ruin it with some simulations of contrailing/vapor effects.

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And I respect yours but I don't agree with it: The simulation of contrails in DCS is on/off. There are no parameters other than altitude ... well, to be clear my disagreement is this:

 

I doubt that ED will do this, because to simulate it correctly you would need some sort of moisture content modelling. Depending on how that's done, it might require re-tuning all FMs as well.

 

Given that missiles may or may not produce contrails (there are plenty of videos where they do not), on/off just takes away from what there is.

 

The proposal is that to apply the contrailing/vapor effects (for which there is already a framework for planes) to the missiles with the wider altitude range like in reality, in the end, making a better and more realistic simulation.

 

And I do respect your opinion, but I would love to hear EDs opinion on this also.

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Noted, take it from a former medical simulator/shader programmer, you would be surprised how many stuff in simulations is just on and off since it is "close enough for government work" otherwise everybody would have 5 fps ;)

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All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

Long time ago in galaxy far far away:

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And I guess for F-18 intake ice, vapour over wings, wing vortex effects... we do not need some sort of moisture content modeling.

 

They don't. It's just going by temperature, and frankly other than over-wing vapors (which don't make you more/less detectable) the only effect is whether you turn your pitot tube de-ice on/off.

 

And I'm with blaze, I'd like heat seekers to have limited sight into/through clouds or precipitation first.

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and I want proper SAM fuzes and warheads + them and AA missiles fuzes working in MP more reliably, but hey... we can't have it all.

 

We will still have invisible to radar choppers, which can trash heat seeking missiles and radar missiles by not doing anything and fire off AA missiles which have greater range than heat seekers fired from fighters and a bunch of other stuff....

 

Not to mention even other modules, some of which also french...

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Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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As far as I'm aware DCS used the standard meteorological conditions for atmospheric modelling. The 'standard model' makes assumptions about density, sea level pressure, temperature and viscosity but does not include any assumption regarding humidity. I would imagine that the contrail on / off variance that we see in-game is due to some very simplistic homogeneous altitude-invariant humidity value, hence contrail altitude is simply a function of temperature as far as the game is concerned.

 

Like FoxAlpha said, close enough for government work without having to ask NASA if they have a spare computer we can borrow to get above 1 fps.

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NASA and USAF have research papers on the matter. It turns out that it's reasonably simple on the surface, though a bit probabilistic in some regimes.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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  • 1 month later...

I'm in agreement with the OP. I did some work and gave myself smoking AMRAAMs and Sidewinders. I'm much happier now as it was driving me nuts not to be able to enjoy the beauty of this sim with such frequently used missiles from the F-15C. I fly offline so it's not affecting anything in the online world.

 

I know this will piss off lots of people who want their sims totally REAL - but hey, I'm having a blast and do this for my own enjoyment. If anyone wants a copy of what I did, PM me.

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